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Why Christians Don't Understand Non-Christians
ArGee | 1/3/01 | ArGee

Posted on 01/03/2002 11:19:13 AM PST by ArGee

A very rich man decided that he wanted to show kindness to the people of the fair city where he lived. Since he was very rich indeed, he decided to throw a banquet for the entire city. He rented the largest sports arena in the city and began his plans. He planned for huge amounts of the best food possible, making allowances for every religious and medical diet. He advertised the banquet in every possible manner - television, radio, billboard, door-to-door canvassing. Considering that there might be some who could not travel, he arranged for free bus transportation to and from the event, and some special-needs vehicles for all who could not ride busses. He even scheduled the banquet to run for 24 hours a day for several days so that everyone could be sure of being served.

He planned long and hard and finally the big day came. The rich man ate quickly and then went about wishing all his guests well and personally making sure that all had every need met. After a while he went outside to tour the grounds and talk with those who had not yet gone in, and those who had already left. Everyone was happy. Many were profusely thankful. It was a glorious occasion.

At one point the rich man noticed a group of people sitting outside a locked door with most unpleasant looks on their faces. Sensing they were not happy, he went over to them. He did not introduce himself but simply asked them if he could be of service.

"We want to go in through this door," one of them replied.

The rich man explained to them that the hall was arranged to feed a large number of people as quickly and effortlessly as possible. This required order inside, and the entrances and exits had been carefully planned to be as efficient as possible. He then offered to go call one of the golf carts that were avaialbe to help people who could not walk far to take them to the entrance. But the man replied, "We do not want to go in the entrance. We want to go in this door. We don't understand why we can't go in any door we wish. We think the man who set this banquet up is mean and hateful for insisting we go in through the entrance. He has tried to bill himself as a very kind man by offering this banquet, but he is not kind at all if he will not indulge us and let us go through this door.

The rich man was distressed at these words, but still attempted to please these people. He tried once more to explain to them what was behind this particular door, and how if they went in this door they would disrupt the meal service being offered inside. He offered to drive them himself, not only to the door, but inside the hall to their tables if they would only go through the entrance to enjoy the meal. Again the man said, "No, but only a hateful man would keep us from going through the door of our choosing. And we will sit here and tell anyone who will listen to us what an awful man he is until he lets us in."

At that the rich man was enraged and he shouted, "Enough." Then he called a police officer to have them thrown off of the property and ordered that they not be allowed to return until the banquet was over and all the scraps had been hauled away. Then, mourning for their loss, he turned to visit with other guests.


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To: 1L
Re: determining if a person is good or bad.

God makes the determination. Our lives are an open book.

821 posted on 01/04/2002 7:16:18 PM PST by Magician
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To: ArGee
I see and hear Him.

I'm sure, then, that He is an important part of your life.

I also hear them, but they are pretty easy to ignore.

Why ignore them? Because they disagree with you? That's fine, but that doesn't explain to someone who doesn't see what you see why the other voices should be ignored; especially when the other voices are saying that they see and hear their own "Him."

Perhaps you are too easily distracted? Perhaps you aren't really intrested in going to the banquet?

It isn't a distraction to listen to those who tell me that if I walk through that door I will not be fed and that, indeed, I will be condemning myself. What test can I use to figure out who is right?

More importantly, why shouldn't I listen to them? Are you trying to conceal something?

Hmmm. Did I say I had made a door? No, I didn't say that.

You are a literalist, aren't you. Let me rephrase it.

Why should I go through the door that people are telling me the rich man said we should go through, as opposed to the doors that others are saying that their own rich men are telling them to tell us to go through?
822 posted on 01/04/2002 7:22:10 PM PST by abandon
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To: occam's chainsaw
It is necessary to identify a trait before you can make the choice to tolerate it.

You mean it's necessary to stereotype a group before you can choose to be what you call tolerant?

Me? I call it religious bigotry.

Practicing this same "trait identification" has been the excuse for countless acts of racial, gender, nationality, and religious intolerance. Most, of course, perpetuated by those who consider themselves the "enlightened ones."

Enjoy your delusions.

823 posted on 01/04/2002 7:31:15 PM PST by Exigence
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To: LuvItOrLeaveIt
Since you can offer no corroborative evidence as to the existance of Frodo Baggins, even if you lined up ten thousand witnesses, the testimony would be inadmissable.

Actually, multiple witnesses testifying to having witnessed a person or event does constitute admissible testimony, independent of other evidence. Indeed, multiple witnesses tend to corroborate each other. Heck, eyewitness testimony is often entered as evidence; without physical corroboration it's not as strong, but it is admissible.

824 posted on 01/04/2002 9:01:22 PM PST by Celtjew Libertarian
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To: LuvItOrLeaveIt
we would have to assume that God reveals himself to us directly on a pretty regular basis- he has not done so to me; (no sarcasm, just statement of fact)if he does so I would be happy to accept his invitation.

Very well said. I've never seen an invitation, let alone the guy running the banquet! All I've ever seen are third and fourth hand accounts of possible invitations. That's not good enough in my book!

R U QUITE
100% SURE?

I suggest otherwise has been the case. . .

Consider that The Infinite [Jean-Paul Satre noted that for the finite to have meaning it must have a connection to the infinite--a connection he never seemed to find]. . . . of choice, perhaps a kind of necessity given the other rules of the game insuring FREE WILL, CHOICE for us mortal critters . . . .

Consider that The Infinite must of necessity muffle Himself enormously to still routinely allow Free Will. He, on occasion, interjects more overtly into this sphere and, indeed, into individual lives. He occasionally even does it with nonbelievers.

But on the whole, He allows His Creation to speak of His majesty. He knows that dramatic enough design and majesty reside there for those truly given to seeking Him to "get it" . . . to "get it" enough to deepen and intensify their search beyond merely observing the majesty of Creation.

He has insured that "those who seek Me, will find Me." He has NOT insured that those who refuse to seek Him will be FORCED to find Him--that is until final judgement.

One can get on an arrogant high horse and insist that God is not playing fair. . . . merely because God doesn't play by THEIR particular script.

But I wonder, assume you graduate from university. You have 3 companies you dearly aspire to work for. Your most sought company with an excellent record and growth prospects offers you a golden position with lots of reward, power and creative options to show your skills.

Would you take your new job and immediately demand that the CEO construct it differently; change the corporate culture to your design; kowtow to your sensibilities on a list of issues; restructure key principles and operating dynamics to conform to your preferences and demands?

I doubt it. If you did, you probably wouldn't have a 2nd day on that job.

God is God. He does things HIS way. It so happens, they are the best ways for us. They allow FAITH sufficient for Relationship without forcing us to be robots. This requires a measure of subtlety routinely on His part. He longs to dance with us more overtly. But there's a price for That Ticket. LOVING HIM AND LOVING OTHERS demonstrates we won't be sleepers joining the club only to try and destroy it from within later.

WHAT COULD BE MORE
EGALITARIAN, FAIR
THAN REQUIRING A MEASURE
OF
FAITH
AS A TICKET TO
RELATIONSHIP?
Especially when
HE GIVES US
a measure to
start us of
to begin with!

Contrary to some philosophies, we don't have to crawl on our knees to some manmade statue. We don't have to earn some list of merit badges. We don't have to be born perfect. We don't have to be born bluebloods. We don't have to be born in the right country. We don't have to have a certain level of IQ or EQ or bank account.

In fact, the humble, childlike prostitute or beggar seems to have a head start with Him.

CHILDLIKE FAITH
IS THE
REQUIRED
KEY

Not too difficult for those who REALLY WANT to KNOW HIM.

We watch the movie CONTACT and take in stride the complex message to decode and then the "one small step" "been done that way for billions of years."

Yet the same folk nodding agreeably with that scenario rage at God for something similar. The message is far less coded though there are coded things aplenty for those thrilled with such. It is still a somewhat hidden message that those WITHOUT the earnest desire to KNOW HIM; without the earnest desire to exercise the measure of faith they were born with--those resistent folk will find the message obscure to unconvincing.

HOWEVER, Those with an earnest HEART-FELT HUMBLE DESIRE TO KNOW HIM will find that their childlike faith is very rich in results when exercised . . . and that the message becomes clearer and more obvious the closer to Him we get. A third of the angels rebelled with satan. Why should He bother with that kind of nonsense again? But actually, it's more for our protection. The more overt His presentation of Himself and the more overt our responding rebellion, the MORE SEVERE the reaping what we have sown.

I don't really think the problem is that you have no evidence sufficient to seek Him out. The problem is you can't make Him over in your image so you refuse to have a relationship with Him. I don't consider that God's problem.

825 posted on 01/04/2002 9:34:53 PM PST by Quix
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To: Quix
A LOT of individuals given the chance to meet the U.S. President; a State governor or even a local mayor . . .

would not even think to IMAGINE DEMANDING that the U.S. President, governor, mayor . . .

meet the average citizen totally on the citizen's terms, turf, rules, preferences.

YET, such individuals get huffy, indignant and justify running the other direction because Almighty God, Creator and sustainer of ALL THAT IS--requires them to meet HIM on HIS terms.

A kind of curious, mindless hypocrisy, to my view.

826 posted on 01/04/2002 9:49:43 PM PST by Quix
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To: Exigence
You mean it's necessary to stereotype a group before you can choose to be what you call tolerant?

No, that is not what I mean at all - I mean exactly what I posted. Go back and read it again.

You are either angry because you misunderstood what I posted or you are just spinning my words because you have a chip on your shoulder. The fact that you reverted to insults so quickly says a lot about you.

Practicing this same "trait identification" has been the excuse for countless acts of racial, gender, nationality, and religious intolerance.

Anyone with a pulse and a fraction of a heart practices "trait identification". Honesty, integrity, knowledge, beauty, wit, charm, respect, friendliness, and respect are all traits. If we didn't practice identifying traits, what information would we use when choosing our friends and mates? The traits I was referring to (snobbiness, intolerance) are personality traits which are commonly considered undesirable by people of all races, genders, nationalities, and religions. I identify these traits in individuals, not groups. I said nothing to indicate I attribute either of these traits to any whole group of people. If I had, you actually would have a valid reason for calling me a bigot. But I didn't (because I am not).

I do not know how you could honestly interpret this as "religious bigotry" without employing convoluted logic or poor reading comprehension skills. You should make sure you understand what someone has said before you start spewing insults. In the future, if you want to cite something I have posted use exact quotes. Don't spin what I say by paraphrasing it into some gross misrepresentation and tell me that your misinterpretation is what I must "really" mean.

Enjoy your delusions.

Which one of us is delusional? You seem to think you're psychic! How else would you think you can tell me what I really meant? Or do you consider yourself to be one of the "enlightened ones" you referred to in your post?

827 posted on 01/04/2002 10:00:53 PM PST by occam's chainsaw
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To: Quix
CHILDLIKE FAITH IS THE REQUIRED KEY

There is no problem in life to which a good solution is willful irrationality and naivete. The term used for those people in any other context is "suckers". What makes this particular case any different?

828 posted on 01/04/2002 10:02:55 PM PST by tortoise
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To: Quix
YET, such individuals get huffy, indignant and justify running the other direction because Almighty God, Creator and sustainer of ALL THAT IS--requires them to meet HIM on HIS terms.

Ummm....no. They view the premise of your assertion as quite apparently false, which falsifies your conclusion. ANY argument predicated on a premise flimsy enough that all parties can't agree on it is a poor argument. If you want people to listen to your assertion, you need to shore up your assumptions first. Putting the cart before the horse is neither good form nor reasonable argumentation.

829 posted on 01/04/2002 10:07:19 PM PST by tortoise
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To: ArGee
What's Club 54.

An exclusive nightclub in NYC.

The people who get into the club think they were the ultimate in human beings. They have have great distain for the those who do not get into the club.

830 posted on 01/04/2002 10:09:05 PM PST by Jeff Gordon
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To: tortoise
Q:
CHILDLIKE FAITH IS THE REQUIRED KEY

T:
There is no problem in life to which a good solution is willful irrationality and naivete. The term used for those people in any other context is "suckers". What makes this particular case any different?

I think you misconstrue my statements enormously. . . perhaps you misconstrue reality as well.

A sucker can be someone who is overly given to swallowing his own personal distortions on reality as absolute truth.

Q:
YET, such individuals get huffy, indignant and justify running the other direction because Almighty God, Creator and sustainer of ALL THAT IS--requires them to meet HIM on HIS terms.

T:
Ummm....no. They view the premise of your assertion as quite apparently false, which falsifies your conclusion. ANY argument predicated on a premise flimsy enough that all parties can't agree on it is a poor argument. If you want people to listen to your assertion, you need to shore up your assumptions first. Putting the cart before the horse is neither good form nor reasonable argumentation.

It appears that we have insufficient common language. If you are unwilling/unable to see other than you have asserted above regarding my statements, I have little hope or expectation that you will see any better from any other statements I might make, regardless of how logical, well presented, solid the foundational origins of those statement might be.

It remains quite reasonable to me that God declares in an amazingly congruent set of 66 documents that "The Heavens declare" His majesty etc. It remains quite reasonable to me that He reasonably and wisely declares "The fool has said in his heart, there is no God."

I forget whether it was Aldus or Julian Huxley who asserted that (possibly paraphrased--I don't recall for sure exactly)'We killed God off so we could screw like bunnies.'

As God pointed out in the above mentioned Scripture--it's REALLY a HEART issue, not a logic issue.

When the HEART SAYS: "I WILL do MY own thing!" and/or "I will NOT do God's thing." . . . no amount of logic, well presented beginning assumptions, propositions and arguments etc. will win any significant ground.

C.S. Lewis, Josh McDowell and a host of others present whatever logic, argument, solid foundational assumptions etc. sufficient for any normal court room. IF you seriously want to find a logical basis for faith, you will search them out. If not, you won't. I have other fish to fry. Thanks anyway.

831 posted on 01/04/2002 10:59:34 PM PST by Quix
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To: ArGee
Christians DO understand non-Christians and that is why Christians thank the Lord for dying on the cross for our sins so that we might be saved. Christians DO understand sinners as we are all sinners. We ask Jesus for forgiveness and repent of our sins. Christians DO understand that by grace we are saved through the blood of Jesus Christ. Christians DO understand that it takes faith to be saved. Christians DO understand that it is easier to walk down a path of sin versus a narrow road of righteousness. Christians DO understand non-Christians and we are praying for you.

"Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?" -from THE BIBLE: John 11:25,26

GOD'S SIMPLE PLAN OF SALVATION (English and Foreign Language Translations)

832 posted on 01/05/2002 12:52:44 AM PST by Cindy
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To: Quix
I have no faith.
833 posted on 01/05/2002 4:10:54 AM PST by LuvItOrLeaveIt
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To: Celtjew Libertarian
But I do not believe that Jesus is God (or the Messiah); therefore, Jesus is not my savior. IMO, of course.
But, Jews DO believe that a messiah IS coming, don't they?

My questions:
What will this messiah be like?
If Jesus didn't (doesn't) fit the bill, what will be the attributes of the future messiah?
Did your ancient prophets describe him?
Just who/what are you waiting FOR?

834 posted on 01/05/2002 4:19:47 AM PST by Elsie
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To: LuvItOrLeaveIt
I have no faith.
Yeah ya do!

You have faith that the god of the bible doesn't exist, for you cannot prove that he doesn't.

835 posted on 01/05/2002 4:21:49 AM PST by Elsie
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To: stuartcr
Still can't understand, whether something is true or not, why let yourself get eaten if avoidable? I believe God wants us to live. What good is a bunch of dead believers?
Let's turn this around a bit......

"Why go off to war? You'll just get a bunch of folks dead. Why not just learn how to speak the other guys language? And, 50 years from now, the 'enemy' will have switched to become your trading partner.

Why rush into a burning building? It may collapse on you and them other folks are probably dead anyway."


Is there NOTHING worth dying for?
836 posted on 01/05/2002 4:27:21 AM PST by Elsie
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To: Elsie
Yeah ya do!

WOW, you must be Miss Cleo. You claim psychic powers now!

You have faith that the god of the bible doesn't exist, for you cannot prove that he doesn't.

Yet another fallacy. The lack of evidence decrees there is no compelling reason to believe your assertions.

Again, I have no faith.

837 posted on 01/05/2002 4:27:58 AM PST by LuvItOrLeaveIt
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To: discostu
Show me a passage in the Bible that says there's a different measurement system for those who were never fortunate enough to hear The Word and I'm ziggy; but from everything I've seen (and as you point out in your story) there's one way only, it's through Christ and if you haven't ever heard of Christ that's your problem.
Ok, here's a couple.....
1 Peter 3
 18.  For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit,
 19.  through whom  also he went and preached to the spirits in prison
 20.  who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah
while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,
 21.  and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also--not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
 22.  who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand--with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.
 
 

Now, I figure that if Christ can do THIS, then He can ALSO make Himself known, somehow, to the 'poor natives way back in the jungle' that never heard of His Name.

"Well, then WHY wasn't it recorded in the bible how he does it?"

Valid question........


John 20
 30.  Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book.
 31.  But these are written that you may  believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
 
John 21
 24.  This is the disciple who testifies to these things and who wrote them down. We know that his testimony is true.
 25.  Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.
 
 

838 posted on 01/05/2002 4:44:59 AM PST by Elsie
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To: LuvItOrLeaveIt
You have faith that the god of the bible doesn't exist, for you cannot prove that he doesn't.
Why do you say that the ABOVE is false, but the BELOW is true?
You have faith that the god of the bible does exist, for you cannot prove that he does .
839 posted on 01/05/2002 4:47:51 AM PST by Elsie
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To: LuvItOrLeaveIt
Father, I echo the prayer of Boxford for LuvItOrLeaveIt. May it be so quickly. Amen.

I've just proven one of your statements wrong. This prayer has not been answered.


(By YOUR definition of QUICKLY anyway.......)

 

 2 Peter 3:8-9
 8.  But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.
 9.  The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.


(And I'll add: 'or slowly' to the above prayer! ;^)
840 posted on 01/05/2002 4:53:55 AM PST by Elsie
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