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Pope John Paul II's World Day of Peace Message
http://www.vatican.va/ ^ | 12.08.01 | Pope John Paul II

Posted on 12/31/2001 5:44:20 PM PST by victim soul

NO PEACE WITHOUT JUSTICE
NO JUSTICE WITHOUT FORGIVENESS

MESSAGE OF HIS HOLINESS POPE JOHN PAUL II

FOR THE CELEBRATION OF THE WORLD DAY OF PEACE, 1 JANUARY 2002

1. The World Day of Peace this year is being celebrated in the shadow of the dramatic events of 11 September last. On that day, a terrible crime was committed: in a few brief hours thousands of innocent people of many ethnic backgrounds were slaughtered. Since then, people throughout the world have felt a profound personal vulnerability and a new fear for the future. Addressing this state of mind, the Church testifies to her hope, based on the conviction that evil, the mysterium iniquitatis, does not have the final word in human affairs. The history of salvation, narrated in Sacred Scripture, sheds clear light on the entire history of the world and shows us that human events are always accompanied by the merciful Providence of God, who knows how to touch even the most hardened of hearts and bring good fruits even from what seems utterly barren soil. This is the hope which sustains the Church at the beginning of 2002: that, by the grace of God, a world in which the power of evil seems once again to have taken the upper hand will in fact be transformed into a world in which the noblest aspirations of the human heart will triumph, a world in which true peace will prevail.

Peace: the work of justice and love

2. Recent events, including the terrible killings just mentioned, move me to return to a theme which often stirs in the depths of my heart when I remember the events of history which have marked my life, especially my youth. The enormous suffering of peoples and individuals, even among my own friends and acquaintances, caused by Nazi and Communist totalitarianism, has never been far from my thoughts and prayers. I have often paused to reflect on the persistent question: how do we restore the moral and social order subjected to such horrific violence? My reasoned conviction, confirmed in turn by biblical revelation, is that the shattered order cannot be fully restored except by a response that combines justice with forgiveness. The pillars of true peace are justice and that form of love which is forgiveness.

3. But in the present circumstances, how can we speak of justice and forgiveness as the source and condition of peace? We can and we must, no matter how difficult this may be; a difficulty which often comes from thinking that justice and forgiveness are irreconcilable. But forgiveness is the opposite of resentment and revenge, not of justice. In fact, true peace is “the work of justice” (Is 32:17). As the Second Vatican Council put it, peace is “the fruit of that right ordering of things with which the divine founder has invested human society and which must be actualized by man thirsting for an ever more perfect reign of justice” (Pastoral Constitution Gaudium et Spes, 78). For more than fifteen hundred years, the Catholic Church has repeated the teaching of Saint Augustine of Hippo on this point. He reminds us that the peace which can and must be built in this world is the peace of right order—tranquillitas ordinis, the tranquillity of order (cf. De Civitate Dei, 19,13).

True peace therefore is the fruit of justice, that moral virtue and legal guarantee which ensures full respect for rights and responsibilities, and the just distribution of benefits and burdens. But because human justice is always fragile and imperfect, subject as it is to the limitations and egoism of individuals and groups, it must include and, as it were, be completed by the forgiveness which heals and rebuilds troubled human relations from their foundations. This is true in circumstances great and small, at the personal level or on a wider, even international scale. Forgiveness is in no way opposed to justice, as if to forgive meant to overlook the need to right the wrong done. It is rather the fullness of justice, leading to that tranquillity of order which is much more than a fragile and temporary cessation of hostilities, involving as it does the deepest healing of the wounds which fester in human hearts. Justice and forgiveness are both essential to such healing.

It is these two dimensions of peace that I wish to explore in this message. The World Day of Peace this year offers all humanity, and particularly the leaders of nations, the opportunity to reflect upon the demands of justice and the call to forgiveness in the face of the grave problems which continue to afflict the world, not the least of which is the new level of violence introduced by organized terrorism. The reality of terrorism

4. It is precisely peace born of justice and forgiveness that is under assault today by international terrorism. In recent years, especially since the end of the Cold War, terrorism has developed into a sophisticated network of political, economic and technical collusion which goes beyond national borders to embrace the whole world. Well-organized terrorist groups can count on huge financial resources and develop wide-ranging strategies, striking innocent people who have nothing to do with the aims pursued by the terrorists.

When terrorist organizations use their own followers as weapons to be launched against defenceless and unsuspecting people they show clearly the death-wish that feeds them. Terrorism springs from hatred, and it generates isolation, mistrust and closure. Violence is added to violence in a tragic sequence that exasperates successive generations, each one inheriting the hatred which divided those that went before. Terrorism is built on contempt for human life.

For this reason, not only does it commit intolerable crimes, but because it resorts to terror as a political and military means it is itself a true crime against humanity.

5. There exists therefore a right to defend oneself against terrorism, a right which, as always, must be exercised with respect for moral and legal limits in the choice of ends and means. The guilty must be correctly identified, since criminal culpability is always personal and cannot be extended to the nation, ethnic group or religion to which the terrorists may belong. International cooperation in the fight against terrorist activities must also include a courageous and resolute political, diplomatic and economic commitment to relieving situations of oppression and marginalization which facilitate the designs of terrorists. The recruitment of terrorists in fact is easier in situations where rights are trampled upon and injustices tolerated over a long period of time.

Still, it must be firmly stated that the injustices existing in the world can never be used to excuse acts of terrorism, and it should be noted that the victims of the radical breakdown of order which terrorism seeks to achieve include above all the countless millions of men and women who are least well-positioned to withstand a collapse of international solidarity—namely, the people of the developing world, who already live on a thin margin of survival and who would be most grievously affected by global economic and political chaos. The terrorist claim to be acting on behalf of the poor is a patent falsehood.

You shall not kill in God's name!

6. Those who kill by acts of terrorism actually despair of humanity, of life, of the future. In their view, everything is to be hated and destroyed. Terrorists hold that the truth in which they believe or the suffering that they have undergone are so absolute that their reaction in destroying even innocent lives is justified. Terrorism is often the outcome of that fanatic fundamentalism which springs from the conviction that one's own vision of the truth must be forced upon everyone else. Instead, even when the truth has been reached—and this can happen only in a limited and imperfect way—it can never be imposed. Respect for a person's conscience, where the image of God himself is reflected (cf. Gen 1:26-27), means that we can only propose the truth to others, who are then responsible for accepting it. To try to impose on others by violent means what we consider to be the truth is an offence against human dignity, and ultimately an offence against God whose image that person bears. For this reason, what is usually referred to as fundamentalism is an attitude radically opposed to belief in God. Terrorism exploits not just people, it exploits God: it ends by making him an idol to be used for one's own purposes.

7. Consequently, no religious leader can condone terrorism, and much less preach it. It is a profanation of religion to declare oneself a terrorist in the name of God, to do violence to others in his name. Terrorist violence is a contradiction of faith in God, the Creator of man, who cares for man and loves him. It is altogether contrary to faith in Christ the Lord, who taught his disciples to pray: “Forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors” (Mt 6:12).

Following the teaching and example of Jesus, Christians hold that to show mercy is to live out the truth of our lives: we can and must be merciful because mercy has been shown us by a God who is Love (cf. 1 Jn 4:7-12). The God who enters into history to redeem us, and through the dramatic events of Good Friday prepares the victory of Easter Sunday, is a God of mercy and forgiveness (cf. Ps 103:3-4, 10-13). Thus Jesus told those who challenged his dining with sinners: “Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy and not sacrifice'. For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners” (Mt 9:13). The followers of Christ, baptized into his redeeming Death and Resurrection, must always be men and women of mercy and forgiveness.

The need for forgiveness

8. But what does forgiveness actually mean? And why should we forgive? A reflection on forgiveness cannot avoid these questions. Returning to what I wrote in my Message for the 1997 World Day of Peace (“Offer Forgiveness and Receive Peace”), I would reaffirm that forgiveness inhabits people's hearts before it becomes a social reality. Only to the degree that an ethics and a culture of forgiveness prevail can we hope for a “politics” of forgiveness, expressed in society's attitudes and laws, so that through them justice takes on a more human character.

Forgiveness is above all a personal choice, a decision of the heart to go against the natural instinct to pay back evil with evil. The measure of such a decision is the love of God who draws us to himself in spite of our sin. It has its perfect exemplar in the forgiveness of Christ, who on the Cross prayed: “Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do” (Lk 23:34).

Forgiveness therefore has a divine source and criterion. This does not mean that its significance cannot also be grasped in the light of human reasoning; and this, in the first place, on the basis of what people experience when they do wrong. They experience their human weakness, and they want others to deal leniently with them. Why not therefore do towards others what we want them to do towards us? All human beings cherish the hope of being able to start all over again, and not remain for ever shut up in their own mistakes and guilt. They all want to raise their eyes to the future and to discover new possibilities of trust and commitment.

9. Forgiveness therefore, as a fully human act, is above all a personal initiative. But individuals are essentially social beings, situated within a pattern of relationships through which they express themselves in ways both good and bad. Consequently, society too is absolutely in need of forgiveness. Families, groups, societies, States and the international community itself need forgiveness in order to renew ties that have been sundered, go beyond sterile situations of mutual condemnation and overcome the temptation to discriminate against others without appeal.

The ability to forgive lies at the very basis of the idea of a future society marked by justice and solidarity.

By contrast, the failure to forgive, especially when it serves to prolong conflict, is extremely costly in terms of human development. Resources are used for weapons rather than for development, peace and justice. What sufferings are inflicted on humanity because of the failure to reconcile! What delays in progress because of the failure to forgive! Peace is essential for development, but true peace is made possible only through forgiveness.

Forgiveness, the high road

10. Forgiveness is not a proposal that can be immediately understood or easily accepted; in many ways it is a paradoxical message. Forgiveness in fact always involves an apparent short-term loss for a real long-term gain. Violence is the exact opposite; opting as it does for an apparent short‑term gain, it involves a real and permanent loss. Forgiveness may seem like weakness, but it demands great spiritual strength and moral courage, both in granting it and in accepting it. It may seem in some way to diminish us, but in fact it leads us to a fuller and richer humanity, more radiant with the splendour of the Creator.

My ministry at the service of the Gospel obliges me, and at the same time gives me the strength, to insist upon the necessity of forgiveness. I do so again today in the hope of stirring serious and mature thinking on this theme, with a view to a far-reaching resurgence of the human spirit in individual hearts and in relations between the peoples of the world.

11. Reflecting on forgiveness, our minds turn naturally to certain situations of conflict which endlessly feed deep and divisive hatreds and a seemingly unstoppable sequence of personal and collective tragedies. I refer especially to what is happening in the Holy Land, that blessed place of God's encounter with man, where Jesus, the Prince of Peace, lived, died and rose from the dead.

The present troubled international situation prompts a more intense call to resolve the Arab Israeli conflict, which has now been going on for more than fifty years, with alternate phases of greater or lesser tension. The continuous recourse to acts of terror and war, which aggravate the situation and diminish hope on all sides, must finally give way to a negotiated solution. The rights and demands of each party can be taken into proper account and balanced in an equitable way, if and when there is a will to let justice and reconciliation prevail. Once more I urge the beloved peoples of the Holy Land to work for a new era of mutual respect and constructive accord.

Interreligious understanding and cooperation

12. In this whole effort, religious leaders have a weighty responsibility. The various Christian confessions, as well as the world's great religions, need to work together to eliminate the social and cultural causes of terrorism. They can do this by teaching the greatness and dignity of the human person, and by spreading a clearer sense of the oneness of the human family. This is a specific area of ecumenical and interreligious dialogue and cooperation, a pressing service which religion can offer to world peace.

In particular, I am convinced that Jewish, Christian and Islamic religious leaders must now take the lead in publicly condemning terrorism and in denying terrorists any form of religious or moral legitimacy.

13. In bearing common witness to the truth that the deliberate murder of the innocent is a grave evil always, everywhere, and without exception, the world's religious leaders will help to form the morally sound public opinion that is essential for building an international civil society capable of pursuing the tranquillity of order in justice and freedom.

In undertaking such a commitment, the various religions cannot but pursue the path of forgiveness, which opens the way to mutual understanding, respect and trust. The help that religions can give to peace and against terrorism consists precisely in their teaching forgiveness, for those who forgive and seek forgiveness know that there is a higher Truth, and that by accepting that Truth they can transcend themselves.

Prayer for peace

14. Precisely for this reason, prayer for peace is not an afterthought to the work of peace. It is of the very essence of building the peace of order, justice, and freedom. To pray for peace is to open the human heart to the inroads of God's power to renew all things. With the life-giving force of his grace, God can create openings for peace where only obstacles and closures are apparent; he can strengthen and enlarge the solidarity of the human family in spite of our endless history of division and conflict. To pray for peace is to pray for justice, for a right-ordering of relations within and among nations and peoples. It is to pray for freedom, especially for the religious freedom that is a basic human and civil right of every individual. To pray for peace is to seek God's forgiveness, and to implore the courage to forgive those who have trespassed against us.

For all these reasons I have invited representatives of the world's religions to come to Assisi, the town of Saint Francis, on 24 January 2002, to pray for peace. In doing so we will show that genuine religious belief is an inexhaustible wellspring of mutual respect and harmony among peoples; indeed it is the chief antidote to violence and conflict. At this time of great distress, the human family needs to be reminded of our unfailing reasons for hope. It is precisely this hope that we intend to proclaim in Assisi, asking Almighty God—in the beautiful phrase attributed to Saint Francis himself—to make each of us a channel of his peace.

15. No peace without justice, no justice without forgiveness: this is what in this Message I wish to say to believers and unbelievers alike, to all men and women of good will who are concerned for the good of the human family and for its future.

No peace without justice, no justice without forgiveness: this is what I wish to say to those responsible for the future of the human community, entreating them to be guided in their weighty and difficult decisions by the light of man's true good, always with a view to the common good.

No peace without justice, no justice without forgiveness: I shall not tire of repeating this warning to those who, for one reason or another, nourish feelings of hatred, a desire for revenge or the will to destroy.

On this World Day of Peace, may a more intense prayer rise from the hearts of all believers for the victims of terrorism, for their families so tragically stricken, for all the peoples who continue to be hurt and convulsed by terrorism and war. May the light of our prayer extend even to those who gravely offend God and man by these pitiless acts, that they may look into their hearts, see the evil of what they do, abandon all violent intentions, and seek forgiveness. In these troubled times, may the whole human family find true and lasting peace, born of the marriage of justice and mercy!

From the Vatican, 8 December 2001

JOHN PAUL II


TOPICS: Announcements; Culture/Society; Front Page News
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To: RnMomof7
We agree on all kinds of important things. Flag me next time you take heat ... I got your back.

As for "my people", I think yours is perhaps a simplistic view of history. I'll flag you to a quiet little Catholic thread sometime where you might see a more objective and genuinely historical account.

Regards, RnMomof7.

281 posted on 01/03/2002 9:47:07 AM PST by Askel5
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To: CCWoody
Now, if you believe your Bible you know that God does not hear sinners.

If that were the case, CCWoody, He'd have no one to talk to. :^)

IMHO, God hears whomever He will. His love goes out to all men. As Francis Schaeffer put it, the Bible tells us truly -- but not exhaustively. The mind and will of God are not objects of/for human understanding.

God bless Pope John Paul II for this heartfelt, beautiful, and urgently needed message. Peace amd love (forgiveness), bb.

282 posted on 01/03/2002 9:48:57 AM PST by betty boop
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To: All
The following reasons are why the posts were deleted. There was no religious underhandedness involved and no one religion or poster selected. The liberals do moniter our site, and they do use our threads and posts to advance their agendas.

flame baiting
references to God/Jesus as homosexual
damnation
general bashing of any religion
or quotes of the above

283 posted on 01/03/2002 9:57:31 AM PST by Admin Moderator
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To: Askel5
It is really funny some of my best friends and loved family are RC and the only freep I have been able to do was in another city....The other freeper was a very active RC..we had a great day yelling at libs together..and there was no crusade..can ya imagine?

Go to the "prody" threads as they are called ..we beat each other up all the time over doctrine..this is not a special thing reserved for Catholics...*grin*..I think apologitc is a wonderful way to learn and grow..

284 posted on 01/03/2002 10:02:09 AM PST by RnMomof7
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To: Admin Moderator
Keep up the great work. Slogging through threads like these to raise the bar on religious discussion will have its effect one day, I trust, when folks realize there's no point in posting a slowpitch so lame it can be hit out of the park on site.
285 posted on 01/03/2002 10:03:21 AM PST by Askel5
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To: Admin Moderator;Jim Robinson;Jerry_M
I believe that some of my deleted posts may have contained quotes about Jesus /homosexuality..but not all of them..I was polite and respectful.

So does this mean that all post that have "unplesant" quotes that may offend will be pulled? That will sure kill FR..75% of it is "unpleasant ":>) and who defines "unplesant?

I also would like to know why in a couple of instances in threads where there were maybe 20 offensive posts out of 200 or in one case 1200 the whole thread was pulled? Look at the cherry picking done on this thread it is destroyed..it makes no sense to anyone coming in.While on the pulled threads it was all in the end of the thread.

I would also like to point out that Jerrys questions were pulled. He was "warned" and threatened with banning for quoting scripture..nothing else..

We need a guideline list of rules, so we know what the banning offenses are .We need a policy that will allow for a review by at one of the JR's and a policy that after the request for the review if it is decided that it is sufficent to pull individual posts the thread can be re posted with all the other comments in place..

All of this is of course MHO :>) but I do not like censorship it does something to my libertarian streak.I know that for legal reasons some control is needed but it has to be consistant and evenly enforced. opinions should not be censored ..personal attacks..character attacks and porn are differnt matters !

God bless ya JR..thank you for FR .I hate sounding like a shrew..but only my husband knows for sure *grin*

286 posted on 01/03/2002 10:41:12 AM PST by RnMomof7
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To: Admin Moderator; RnMomof7; OrthodoxPresbyterian; CCWoody; the_doc
Well, this thread has certainly been exorcised of any meaningful content. Know what? You never did answer my question as to why I was threatened with suspension or banishment. I find it quite interesting that you have been selective in your elimination of posts, and made sure to keep a few out there that would give grounds for new participants to see us Protestants in the worst light possible.
287 posted on 01/03/2002 10:43:17 AM PST by Jerry_M
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To: Jerry_M
I made that point earlier ..we are left to look like war mongers and haters and the readers have no context in which to read the remaining posts..and interesting that "Damnation"posts (I have not clear picture of what that meanss..boy is that a judgement call) are now deleted....I guess that elimates 1/3 of the Bible quotes

An internet book burning..of a sort ......

288 posted on 01/03/2002 11:03:16 AM PST by RnMomof7
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To: CCWoody
Woody, I was havin' a little fun with mom, lighten up.

I eagerly await the triumphant return of our Savior and pray that I have accepted the gift of salvation He has freely offered.

You know I don't believe in predestination in regard to election so save your fingers and jimRobs bandwidth by exercising restraint in your response, if in fact you feel compelled to make one.

289 posted on 01/03/2002 11:53:11 AM PST by conservonator
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To: George W. Bush
But FR won't last if it becomes a haven from free speech either. The marketplace of ideas necessary to any democratic republic is not a series of closed inpenetrable rooms from which all other thought can be excluded.

I believe you are corect..but JR birthed it and he can abort it however or when ever he chooses:>(

290 posted on 01/03/2002 12:15:55 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: conservonator
Woody, I was havin' a little fun with mom, lighten up.

Well mom has come out the villan in all this ..there are some that want me gone..it is hard to laugh at that

291 posted on 01/03/2002 12:18:56 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: Askel5; Orual
Nice post.

Thank you. To clarify my position somewhat, I'm sure you're aware that I have far fewer differences with the tougher RC bishops like Bruskowitz and Curtiss than I do with Rome's pronouncements, like the article on this post which takes jabs at fundamentalists like me. A lot of my most reliable political allies are traditional Catholics. We'll never agree on doctrine but I can recognize considerable common ground with them and some of the conservative RC hierarchy. With Rome, I have none. I wonder how Catholic fundamentalist groups like Defenders of the Magisterium feel about this particular pronouncement and upcoming meeting. As far as the mistaken assumptions of many others on this thread, you'd find quickly that many of us repudiate people like Billy Graham in terms just as harsh as we use toward Rome. There are many samples of it. Fundamentalist may be a dirty word in many circles, both Protestant and Catholic, but some of us draw the line and there we will stand. And we have little cause to complain. After all, they don't throw us to the lions any more.

Orual, you didn't receive much answer from the others but I've heard the same complaints from other faithful traditionalists within the church of Rome. You're hardly alone. There are at least some tough American bishops that aren't afraid to take the traditional stand and make it stick. Interestingly, they also seem to have the strongest seminaries and best candidates for them. So, from your traditionalist perspective, the future may not be entirely bleak. Some of us Protestants have far less to be hopeful about.
292 posted on 01/03/2002 12:43:24 PM PST by George W. Bush
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To: RnMomof7
..we are left to look like war mongers and haters and the readers have no context in which to read the remaining posts.

Only if you failed to save the thread before it was edited. I kept a copy. Probably others did too.
293 posted on 01/03/2002 12:47:49 PM PST by George W. Bush
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To: George W. Bush
Thank you for your comments. I note that you have saved a copy of this thread before the elective surgery was done. It amazed me that so many replies had been deleted. Can you post the unexpurgated version on your page?
294 posted on 01/03/2002 1:02:11 PM PST by Orual
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To: Orual;George W. Bush
Thank you for your comments. I note that you have saved a copy of this thread before the elective surgery was done. It amazed me that so many replies had been deleted. Can you post the unexpurgated version on your page?

I would second that!

295 posted on 01/03/2002 1:07:23 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: George W. Bush
For Pete's sake, I'm happy to cut you some slack on the Magisterium (which I defend =).

You've nearly 500 years of concerted anti-clericalism to overcome. It ain't easy.

296 posted on 01/03/2002 1:28:49 PM PST by Askel5
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To: betty boop; Judith Anne; Jerry_M; the_doc; OrthodoxPresbyterian; RnMomof7
IMHO, God hears whomever He will. His love goes out to all men. As Francis Schaeffer put it, the Bible tells us truly -- but not exhaustively. The mind and will of God are not objects of/for human understanding.

First of all, see my Post #51, #72, & #90 to outline the Biblical basis that God does not hear [unrepentent] sinners! Therefore, your opinion doesn't matter, does it?

These verses are the basis that at the very least what the Pope will be doing by praying with these godless people for peace will have no effect whatsoever. Moreover, since my Lord has plainly said through His word that there will be no peace for the wicked, this further reinforces that this will have no effect whatsoever. If the Pope were truly wanting peace and seeking it then he would be calling sinners to repentence and sharing the gospel; not praying with them.

Therefore, we can conclude that what I said in Post #14 (now removed) is true; there will be a gathering that serves no other purpose than a collection of the godless. Note that I must refrain from the proper Biblical use of language to soothe itching ears.

If you wish, I can further explain exactly what I meant and why I said it; but I see no need to as not one single Roman Catholic on this thread has directly addressed the scriptures quoted.

297 posted on 01/03/2002 1:30:55 PM PST by CCWoody
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To: conservonator
Woody, I was havin' a little fun with mom, lighten up.

Even if you did not need to hear the message, there are some who do. Next time, you can join me in getting posts pulled by forcefully denouncing and calling for repentence anybody who would even dare to suggest that the God of all Creation would become something so ______. (There, I'll _____ myself!)

298 posted on 01/03/2002 1:37:10 PM PST by CCWoody
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To: Orual; RnMomof7; Askel5
Orual: It amazed me that so many replies had been deleted. Can you post the unexpurgated version on your page?
RnMomof7: I would second that!

I think JimRob and the moderators would take a very dim view of any reposting of deleted material. I save threads so that if something gets pulled and then people start accusing that so-and-so said such-and-such on a deleted post, I can then prove it with the originals. I'm not looking to fire things up again. JimRob and the moderator have apparently made their decision on this round of controversy and I'll respect that.

Askel5: For Pete's sake, I'm happy to cut you some slack on the Magisterium (which I defend =).

Yeah, a great bunch. But you really have to ask why it is that they should even need to be defended, why "fundamentalists", either inside or outside the church of Rome, are considered so awful. Makes you think, does't it? At least DOTM don't flip-flop around. They have a really great article by Archbishop Curtiss on why it is anti-Catholic and anti-Christian to vote Democrat. I've probably read it four or five times. Man, you can only wish some of these liberal Protestant churches had the backbone to say exactly the same thing to their members. Some of the RC websites refer to Catholoic fundamentalists and DOTM is often the group named as though they are some awful throwbacks. The truth is, DOTM simply believes what their parents and grandparents and etc. believed for centuries. I may not agree with the doctrine of it. But it's no vice to believe in the principles of faith held by our forbears any more than it is un-American to hold to the views on republican government as set forth by the Founders.

It brings kind of brings us back full-circle to JP II's remarks about "fundamentalists".

I generally don't say that I'm certain that I won't meet any RCs in heaven. But I have absolutely no reason to think that I'll see the current pope there. If JP II truly wore the mantle of Peter's authority, he would die before kissing a Koran or hobnobbing with pagans and such. But he instead voluntarily arranges to do such things. It's the simple truth. How can one honor the memory of the sacrifices of the ancient (and modern) martyrs of the church, those who died for the faith and at the same time give any aid or comfort to animists and other heathen? The ancient fathers knew of no such Christian act. And let me say that we Protestants lay our own very strong claim upon the memory of those same ancient saints and the authority of the church fathers just as the church of Rome does.

We know very well what happened to the disciples of Jesus and to the ancient martyrs at the hands of pagan Rome. None of the apostles or the early church fathers ever told us it was fine to honor false gods in any way. It was the same under the Old Covenant with the commandments to Jews to never worship false gods. What we see today from the Roman hierarchy is a very different thing from what was seen only decades ago. And, interestingly, I have no doubt there are a very great number of rank-and-file members of the church of Rome who would die before giving an inch to a false god, let's say, a pagan moon god for instance. The modern martyrs of the RC church and of other churches in places like the Middle East are ample proof that some Christians still honor the name of Christ above all others and will never betray their Lord by bowing their knee to a false god. Just as at the time of the Reformation, the strongest disagreements Protestants have with the church of Rome is with the hierarchy, not with rank-and-file members and many ordinary priests. History shows us that it was much the same way at the time of the Reformation and the centuries that preceded it.

Well, I'd better pipe down before I get banned.
299 posted on 01/03/2002 2:46:04 PM PST by George W. Bush
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To: George W. Bush
As you know, you're perfectly entitled to your own opinion of the truth.

JPII's far from perfect ... he'd be the first to tell you that. Plenty of Catholics were not keen on his kissing the Koran. But that's a good instance for reminding you that the Pope is infallible only under explicitly proscribed ex cathedra circumstances. Where he is not acting expressly within or advocating Church teaching, we're certainly free to criticize.

And we have some BASIS for criticism ... thanks to the Magisterium who zealously guards the Truth and ensures with every due rigor that it's promulgated over the ages without any loss of richness or overlay of Personal Opinion or majority-rule Fashion.

That's why defend the Magisterium. It wouldn't be necessary at all, of course, were it not for folks like you. =)

Regards, George II

300 posted on 01/03/2002 3:06:26 PM PST by Askel5
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