Posted on 12/29/2001 1:02:06 PM PST by AndrewSshi
I said that Mormonism attempts to rob God of His glory. It cannot and all who go to their grave beilieving the lie will understand that they will Glorify God with their destruction. The rest of us will see this and fear and laugh him to scorn saying: "This is the man that did not make God his strength." (Psalm 52)
What if God, choosing to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted for destruction; and this, that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, whom He had prepared before unto glory, even us whom He hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?Perhaps you should ponder these words of Isaiah:
Isaiah 43:10 "You are My witnesses," says the LORD, "And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me.Mormonism underestimates God in a eternally fatal way. God is infinitely jealous of His glory.Isaiah 44:8 Do not fear, nor be afraid; Have I not told you from that time, and declared it? You are My witnesses. Is there a God besides Me? Indeed there is no other Rock; I know not one."'
Isaiah 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else; there is no God besides Me.
I am trying to figure out if we are talking about the same thing..I am saying that man can do NOTHING to merit his salvation.The defination of grace says it all
Grace is God's Unmerited favor
Ephesians 2
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
On works it continues
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
I believe there are indeed "rewards" for our faithfulness and obedience....In the OT God asks "Is not obedience better than sacrifice?"
Our obedience (in "works)is in response to our salvation ,and in obedience to Him..it merits noting toward our salvation..
No, decisions do not create character; never have and never will. Like nearly everything else, you also get this wrong, not knowing the Scripture
And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.Your belief is so very new-age. The only thing that produces character is tribulation. This is precisely why everyone will endure a fiery trial who claim to be saved by Christ. The chaff, who have merely decided that they believe, will be burnt up and will not endure to the end because they do not have the Holy spirit within their hearts.
Do you think that the wedding guest without a garment did not decide that he was suppose to be be there? Do you think that all these did not believe that they were suppose to be there? Do you not think that there will be many who have decided and believed that they are properly covered with a garment of salvation?
In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls.Many will say to Me in that Day, `Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name, and in Thy name have cast out devils, and in Thy name done many wonderful works?' And then will I profess unto them, `I never knew you: depart from Me, ye that work iniquity.' Do you not think that all these, even more than deciding they were saved, also believed with a false heart that they were saved?For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
And ye shall seek Me and find Me when ye shall search for Me with all your heart.
Therefore say, `Thus saith the Lord GOD: I will even gather you from the people and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.' And they shall come thither, and they shall take away all the detestable things thereof and all the abominations thereof from thence. And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them a heart of flesh, that they may walk in My statutes and keep Mine ordinances, and do them. And they shall be My people, and I will be their God. But as for them whose heart walketh after the heart of their detestable things and their abominations, I will recompense their way upon their own heads, saith the Lord GOD."
You have been shown the clear teaching of the Bible. Decisions do not create character; they reveal good character. For it says by their fruits you shall know them. You can either continue to believe that you can decide that you are saved or you can repent of this. The choice is yours. A "decision for Christ" is not a total, complete, and utter committment of falling upon the Rock.
Of course your not! That is the problem. They cannot even define our position correctly.
My dear friend..You were gone for a long time...(or at least our paths didn't cross :>) My son was also saved as a child..the gospel was preached and he shot up like a rocket and ran down to the altar.His mom could not restrain that 7 year old boy. He has never wavered in his faith (that is now 20 years ago), That was the grace of God.He never asked me if it was alright...he never hesitated..he flew into the arms of God. He never considered refusing.That is irresistible grace.
As I fell to my knees ,I never considered that there was a choice involved. In the presence of God there is nothing else to do...you fall on your face in repentance (and then spend the next 25 years ,this year, praising Him for His grace and mercy). God did indeed initiate the moment of my conversion.His presence and His grace turned my heart toward Him. I could not have said no, because it never occurred to me..
Now for years I would watch people say they were "debating" going to the altar.I wondered how any man could "debate" or fight the grace of God. I would look around me and see a world that pays lip sevice to God..but lives like children of satan..I would ask myself, how is it that they do not seek God? How can they ignore Him and joke about hell? They have "heard" the gospel,they know the consequences of continued refusal of God, yet they "refuse" to hear Him>
I asked you a very plain question..what makes the nice Methodist lady next store to me "different" than me ? She never misses church. She is not out on the streets sinning , but outside church on Sunday there is no evidence of a relationship with Christ. What is the difference FTD? I have come to believe that the difference is the grace of God..nothing of me. He showered me with His amazing grace.....and as it washed over me there was no other response but "Why me Lord ??Why me?" Words I repeated over and over in response to being given a new life, words I still say "Why me Lord? Why me?. Then and now I desire Him above all else..
Since each conversion is different one can not make an issue of it.
Yes God finds us in very different places. But I think we must make an issue out of it,or else we can find ourselves in error.
Finally, why some receive the illumination and some do not? All receive some Illumination. (Psa 19:1-3, Rom 1:19). At that point of general Illumination an individual is either positive (desiring more) or negative (rejecting God-Rom.1:21). God will provide more Illumination to those who will believe.
The will is the issue here isn't it?
The Gospel goes out and will fall on hard ground and soft. The 'soft' ground will respond freely.The 'hard' ground react and reject.
And then the question why is some ground not "turned over?" It is God's "job" to prepare the soil to receive the seed..(all we do is toss it out).....yet he leaves some ground hardened..unable to receive the seed..
There are areas of the world where the negative volition is so great that those areas have been closed to the Gospel. One Missionary spent I believe 40 years in Mongola and had one convert! Depravity does not mean a dead will. It means a weakened, corrupted will but one that can still cry out save me
I am not talking about the 3rd world..I am talking about the USA where most everyone has been exposed to some degree to the gospel,and yet they refuse. Why would a corrupt will that wills to sin call out for forgiveness?
So, in your understanding of the plan of salvation, when God choses to leave a particular patch of ground hardened, and that patch of ground fails to receive the seed (not out of choice, but because it is simply unable to do it since God chose to leave the ground hardened), then it is entirely just for God to send that patch of ground to hell for eternity as a result of not receiving the seed.
Wow: God is a bouncer at a nightclub. "Not on the list? Sorry, you don't get in. Don't complain to me, simply because I made the list, and you never, ever had even a remote chance of getting in. I'm running the show here, and I'll play favorites if I darn well please. OK, who's next? Your name? Let's see... oh, I'm sorry, you're not on the list, either. What's that you say? You claim that you turned your life over to Jesus, and that you really are saved, that I should doublecheck for your name on this list? Nope, sorry: I don't make mistakes; if anybody is mistaken here, believe me, buddy, it's you. I said you're not on the list, so you're not on the list. I should know, I made the list ahead of time, OK? Next...?"
If that's eternal justice, then the athiests are right: there is no God.
Do you believe that there will be people who sincerely believe they have turned their lives over to Christ and who will claim to have felt the constant influence of the Holy Spirit and who kept the commandments and who yet will be told by God at the last day, "Sorry, you're not on the list, you don't get in"?
If so, how can you ever be sure you're not going to be one of them?
You still don't apprehend our Biblical position. The soil is hard and barren and like a desert precisely becase man has already made his choice:
Professing to be wise, we became fools, and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.Who are you to complain because God is pleased to leave most men to wallow in their hatred for Him? All men everywhere have made their choice. The Bible is crystal clear about this. God, in His infinite grace toward some, has chosen to redeem some of us not for our sakes but for His name's sake.We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we in agreement. When the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us; for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves.
If the Gospel was designed so that it resulted in salvation due to some merit on our part, it would reduce the Gospel to a monstrosity:
I would have you remember that the view under which Jesus beheld us was not only the true one, but, for us, the kindly one; because had it been written that Christ died for the better sort, then each troubled spirit would have inferred "he died not for me." Had the merit of his death been the perquisite of honesty, where would have been the dying thief? If of chastity, where the woman that loved much? If of courageous fidelity, how would it have fared with the apostles, for they all forsook him and fled? There are times when the bravest man trembles lest he should be found a coward, the most disinterested frets about the selfishness of his heart, and the most pure is staggered by his own impurity; where, then, would have been hope for one of us, if the gospel had been only another form of law, and the benefits of the cross had been reserved as the rewards of virtue? The gospel does not come to us as a premium for virtue, but it presents us with forgiveness for sin. It is not a reward for health, but a medicine for sickness. Therefore, to meet all cases, it puts us down at our worst, and, like the good Samaritan with the wounded traveller, it comes to us where we are. "Christ died for the impious" is a great net which takes in even the leviathan sinner; and of all the creeping sinners innumerable which swarm the sea of sin, there is not one kind which this great net does not encompass. - Spurgeon Sermon (For whom did Christ die?)And you are exactly trying to make the Gospel just another work of the law because like all carnal flesh everywhere, we want to think that we actually do have some merit and can say to the others: "See, I was (insert prideful adjective here) enough to accept it."
But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God. There it is, the Good News in black and white. He came to save that which was lost.
It's a predestined mess.
Well, I will cheerfully leave you stuck in it. What God does in this regard is His business (2 Timothy 2:26).
Yep there is a list...and He keeps it..did you ever doubt that he was not going to let everyone in ?
Philippians 4:2-4And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life.
Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
Revelation 20:12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Revelation 20:13And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 21:27"And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Revelation22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Revelation 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Do you believe that there will be people who sincerely believe they have turned their lives over to Christ and who will claim to have felt the constant influence of the Holy Spirit and who kept the commandments and who yet will be told by God at the last day, "Sorry, you're not on the list, you don't get in"?
That is a difficult question to answer, because there are alot of people that have non saving faith. They have a non Biblical faith in churches and rituals,faith that is Jesus + someting (Jesus plus the church ,Jesus + the sacraments, Jesus + works) There are lots of folks that belong to "cults" that believe they are saved.
If you are discussing someone that has responded to the gospel,repented and has continued in his walk..that is a different question. I believe the Spirit gives witness and that saving faith is evident to those around ,it is manifested by the fruit of the Spirit ,and perseverence.
To make a long story short. I suspect that there will be some that will be turned away that thought they were saved
Matthew7
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
We have a God of Love,and mercy but do not be deceived He is also a God of justice and judgment!
No answer on the other post to you???
I don't doubt that there is a list. What I question is your understanding of how one's name ends up on the list.
I suppose you're just going to have to give me up as a lost cause: since I fail to accept your view of predestination, I'm obviously unregenerate, and will never understand it. The truly regenerate mind, on the other hand, apparently has no problem in looking at injustice and calling it justice.
I guess I just fail to measure up.
I had a hunch you'd overlook this question...
At this point, I prefer to follow the advice in 2 Timothy 2:23.
I did answer it you just didn't notice..*GRIN*
I said that the Spirit gives witness ,and perseverence..
Hebrews 10
21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)
My Lord has said to me "I am your salvation." I have stared death in the face in a moment of crisis and there been with Him. He is the God of the Bible, not the Book of Mormon. And I know intimately the Terror of the Lord.
Martin Luther regarded the matter of free will--what it is and what it isn't--to be the pivotal doctrinal issue of the Reformation. Based on what I see in the Bible, I think he was right about that.
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