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To: fortheDeclaration
The can receive the things of God if God (The same God that the Calvinist is always screaming is Omnipotent,) wants it to be so. The issue does make the choice for the individual, or does He make the choice understandable I find it amazing that Calvinists limit the Omnipotence of God by stating He cannot make the Gospel understandable to someone who is spiritually dead! The real issue is that the Calvinist system demands that man be passive while Love demands a active response. Being a woman, I am sure you understand that important difference. God (intiates-grace) man responds (faith-receive the free gift)-very simple.

My dear friend..You were gone for a long time...(or at least our paths didn't cross :>) My son was also saved as a child..the gospel was preached and he shot up like a rocket and ran down to the altar.His mom could not restrain that 7 year old boy. He has never wavered in his faith (that is now 20 years ago), That was the grace of God.He never asked me if it was alright...he never hesitated..he flew into the arms of God. He never considered refusing.That is irresistible grace.
As I fell to my knees ,I never considered that there was a choice involved. In the presence of God there is nothing else to do...you fall on your face in repentance (and then spend the next 25 years ,this year, praising Him for His grace and mercy). God did indeed initiate the moment of my conversion.His presence and His grace turned my heart toward Him. I could not have said no, because it never occurred to me..

Now for years I would watch people say they were "debating" going to the altar.I wondered how any man could "debate" or fight the grace of God. I would look around me and see a world that pays lip sevice to God..but lives like children of satan..I would ask myself, how is it that they do not seek God? How can they ignore Him and joke about hell? They have "heard" the gospel,they know the consequences of continued refusal of God, yet they "refuse" to hear Him>

I asked you a very plain question..what makes the nice Methodist lady next store to me "different" than me ? She never misses church. She is not out on the streets sinning , but outside church on Sunday there is no evidence of a relationship with Christ. What is the difference FTD? I have come to believe that the difference is the grace of God..nothing of me. He showered me with His amazing grace.....and as it washed over me there was no other response but "Why me Lord ??Why me?" Words I repeated over and over in response to being given a new life, words I still say "Why me Lord? Why me?. Then and now I desire Him above all else..

Since each conversion is different one can not make an issue of it.

Yes God finds us in very different places. But I think we must make an issue out of it,or else we can find ourselves in error.

Finally, why some receive the illumination and some do not? All receive some Illumination. (Psa 19:1-3, Rom 1:19). At that point of general Illumination an individual is either positive (desiring more) or negative (rejecting God-Rom.1:21). God will provide more Illumination to those who will believe.

The will is the issue here isn't it?

The Gospel goes out and will fall on hard ground and soft. The 'soft' ground will respond freely.The 'hard' ground react and reject.

And then the question why is some ground not "turned over?" It is God's "job" to prepare the soil to receive the seed..(all we do is toss it out).....yet he leaves some ground hardened..unable to receive the seed..

There are areas of the world where the negative volition is so great that those areas have been closed to the Gospel. One Missionary spent I believe 40 years in Mongola and had one convert! Depravity does not mean a dead will. It means a weakened, corrupted will but one that can still cry out save me

I am not talking about the 3rd world..I am talking about the USA where most everyone has been exposed to some degree to the gospel,and yet they refuse. Why would a corrupt will that wills to sin call out for forgiveness?

266 posted on 01/16/2002 10:01:18 AM PST by RnMomof7
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To: CCWoody
sorry meant to flag you to #266
267 posted on 01/16/2002 10:02:28 AM PST by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7
It is God's "job" to prepare the soil to receive the seed..(all we do is toss it out).....yet he leaves some ground hardened..unable to receive the seed..

So, in your understanding of the plan of salvation, when God choses to leave a particular patch of ground hardened, and that patch of ground fails to receive the seed (not out of choice, but because it is simply unable to do it since God chose to leave the ground hardened), then it is entirely just for God to send that patch of ground to hell for eternity as a result of not receiving the seed.

Wow: God is a bouncer at a nightclub. "Not on the list? Sorry, you don't get in. Don't complain to me, simply because I made the list, and you never, ever had even a remote chance of getting in. I'm running the show here, and I'll play favorites if I darn well please. OK, who's next? Your name? Let's see... oh, I'm sorry, you're not on the list, either. What's that you say? You claim that you turned your life over to Jesus, and that you really are saved, that I should doublecheck for your name on this list? Nope, sorry: I don't make mistakes; if anybody is mistaken here, believe me, buddy, it's you. I said you're not on the list, so you're not on the list. I should know, I made the list ahead of time, OK? Next...?"

If that's eternal justice, then the athiests are right: there is no God.

Do you believe that there will be people who sincerely believe they have turned their lives over to Christ and who will claim to have felt the constant influence of the Holy Spirit and who kept the commandments and who yet will be told by God at the last day, "Sorry, you're not on the list, you don't get in"?

If so, how can you ever be sure you're not going to be one of them?

268 posted on 01/16/2002 10:33:05 AM PST by CubicleGuy
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To: RnMomof7
If so, how can you ever be sure you're not going to be one of them?

I had a hunch you'd overlook this question...

273 posted on 01/16/2002 12:00:06 PM PST by CubicleGuy
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To: RnMomof7
And then the question why is some ground not "turned over?" It is God's "job" to prepare the soil to receive the seed..(all we do is toss it out).....yet he leaves some ground hardened..unable to receive the seed..

It is not Gods job to prepare the soil. God has given man the ability to choose (an uncause cause). Those who choose not to believe may do so for any number of reasons. They may feel they have to give us something (remember the rich young ruler?), they may still doubt, they may be fear riducule.

It is God's will that none perish, that all men come to Him, that most do not is from their own choice not His. Do you think God loves you or I more then those going to Hell?

Even so, come Lord Jesus

286 posted on 01/16/2002 8:12:49 PM PST by fortheDeclaration
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To: RnMomof7
yet they refuse

You got it right there-THEY REFUSE

Why is this so difficult for you to understand (the wicked like being wicked (Ps.10). Satan rejected God did he not? Gee, do you think he had free will.

And before 'doc' brings in his 'song and dance' about 'cause and effect', the final cause in Satan's refusal to serve God is his own will.

Now, the reality is God accepted the fall of Satan so that the service of a Micheal would be given freely and that is pleasing to God. God takes pleasure (now there is a word foreign to Calvinism) in the free response of His creatures.

Now, all Calvinists can think of is glory, but the glory that God receives is accomplishing what pleases Him (Rev.4:11)

Even so,come Lord Jesus

291 posted on 01/16/2002 10:18:13 PM PST by fortheDeclaration
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