Debate over licenses for illegal immigrants heats up

The debate over whether to grant driver's licenses to illegal immigrants has simmered for a few years, but it could heat up next month.

Proponents have 30,000 signatures, the attention of Gov. Roy Barnes and two champions in the state Legislature. Opponents plan an ad campaign and press conferences to protest possible changes during the legislative session that begins in January.

Both sides may confront questions raised by the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks. Authorities say some of the 19 hijackers improperly obtained driver's licenses and state IDs in Florida, Virginia and New Jersey and used them to open bank accounts, rent cars and apartments and more easily blend into the mainstream.

Georgia law says only U.S. citizens and people with permission to live here can get a driver's license. That leaves out a few hundred thousand illegal immigrants, mainly Latinos. They work in poultry plants, carpet mills, construction and other businesses. They drive every day but can't buy auto insurance because they can't get licenses.

Opponents worry that illegal immigrants could use a license to access government services to which they are not entitled. They say it makes no sense to officially recognize someone whose presence violates federal law.

Rep. Barbara Mobley (D-Decatur) has filed a bill to license illegal immigrants. She said she plans to revise it, maybe to create licenses that say something like "for driving only." The goal is to ease concerns that illegal immigrants would use a license to vote.

Mobley said she expects increased opposition because of the "greater scrutiny of immigrants" after Sept. 11.

"My concern was heightened because of the tone of the country and the tone of the state," she said.

Teodoro Maus, former Mexican consul general in Atlanta, led the licensing push for years. He said Mobley's bill "would have had a better chance" were it not for attacks in New York and Washington. He predicted the bill will go nowhere without "a tremendous amount of lobbying."

Gov. Roy Barnes said Sept. 20 that Georgia should grant some form of license to illegal immigrants, but a spokeswoman declined to say whether he supports Mobley's bill. Barnes has directed the Department of Motor Vehicle Safety to study the issue, and officials there said they are examining what other states are doing.

North Carolina licenses illegal immigrants on the theory that such immigrants drive anyway and need to learn the rules of the road and have auto insurance. The state tightened requirements after Sept. 11 to require applicants to show a Social Security number or taxpayer identification number. Illegal immigrants cannot get valid Social Security numbers, but they can get taxpayer ID numbers.

Authorities in Florida, Kentucky and New Jersey tightened license requirements for foreigners after Sept. 11. And a California plan to license some illegal immigrants who have applied for legal residency was delayed by a budget crunch and concerns that potential terrorists could get licenses.

South Carolina's attorney general recently asked U.S. Attorney General John Ashcroft to require additional photo identification for airline passengers with licenses from North Carolina, Virginia, Tennessee and Utah, states that license illegal immigrants. He said the license requirements in those states create "a large loophole for potential terrorists."

Phil Kent, president of the Southeastern Legal Foundation, said his public-interest law firm plans an ad campaign and press conferences next month to campaign against driver's licenses for Georgia's illegal immigrants. He said he has met with a few legislators and doubts Mobley's bill will pass.

Driver's licenses are the closest thing Americans have to a national ID card. They let people drive legally, of course, but also let people rent videos, board airplanes and cash pay checks. They can be offered, often with a fraudulent Social Security card, as evidence that someone is legally authorized to work.

"The driver's licenses are the keys to the kingdom," Kent said. "I don't want to reward lawbreaking."

Latino leaders say getting licenses for illegal immigrants is among their top priorities. A committee of community leaders has led a petition drive that has so far collected about 30,000 signatures and several letters. The Georgia Commission on Hispanic Affairs, newly created by the governor, decided at its first meeting to examine the driver's license issue.

One commission member, Rep. Mary Squires (D-Norcross), said she plans to introduce a bill that would let people drive with a valid license from a state that borders Georgia. It also would let people drive with a valid license from Canada and Mexico. Many people don't know it, but the Department of Motor Vehicles says people with a valid license from a foreign country already can drive legally for one year.

Squires plans to discuss her bill at a press conference at the state Capitol at 10 a.m. Jan. 8. Latino leaders will also present signatures and letters they have collected in support of a change. Squires said the state should acknowledge that illegal immigrants are important to the economy.

Hey, tell me something... When the "illegals" aren't able to do the work you refuse to do for the low dollar they will work for... Who are you going to blame, when those hiring them move their companies out of the USA?

This argument that illegals do the work "no one else will do" is so much like the novel "1984", it makes me wonder if those that keep saying it knew Mr. Orwell personally. Keep telling the lie over and over and over, no matter how untrue, it eventually becomes the "truth".

Who do you think was doing all this work before the illegals started coming in here enmasse? It is true, we've had migrant workers from Mexico coming here to work agriculture for decades, but they usually went home and didn't bring their entire families here.

Another problem is because they don't go home, they eventually move on to do other jobs, like construction, meatpacking, and service industry. These were jobs traditionally held by Americans, when they were good paying.

I'm not against legal immigration, in moderation. And I could even support some limited kind of guest worker program, on the condition they didn't bring in their entire families, crowding our schools and hospitals, not to mention the prisons. After their work they should go home. If they want to live here permanently, then take the legal route like everyone else in the world and apply for it in the home country.

The problem is more complicated than what meets a red-necked eye

90% of the population in the country wants immigration laws enforced and our borders closed. So I guess that means 90% of the country are rednecks.

I don't think it's complicated at all when the public sees illegal immmigrants blowing up our buildings and taking over our communities we've got a problem. And it won't be solved until we get politicians with backbone.

Let's separate the drivers license issue from the guest worker discussion.

I have a problem giving illegals drivers licenses since it is the Number 1 form of ID in this country. If it only gave them the right to drive, I would have less of a problem with it. perhaps we can give illegals "permits", or something ... something "different" that identifies that they are different.

If we don't restrict the drivers licenses to citizens, we HAVE to replace this ID as the predominant ID that we use for everything.

Guest workers are another matter ... the "permit" suggestion I make could accomodate that special group of people if we decide to have them. Regardless of the outcome, we ALL need to be something - citizens, legal non-citizens (carrying passports), and guest workers (I assume) with permits to be so.

We cannot continue to make it easier to remain an illegal immigrant here in this country.

Let's separate the drivers license issue from the guest worker discussion.

To me, they're related in the sense that if you're here illegally, drivers licenses or Consulate ID's now being accepted for bank accounts etc lend legitimacy to a group of people who live in the shadows sort of speak. By keeping the immigration system, including any potential guest worker programs legal, then appropriate forms of ID's, including drivers licences wouldn't be a problem. I don't blame the immigrants themselves as much as an ineffective government that refuses for whatever reason to confront this whole mess and get the situation under control. Their only solution to date seems to be neverending amnesties and other goodies which only encourage more illegal immigration.

To me, they're related in the sense that if you're here illegally, drivers licenses or Consulate ID's now being accepted for bank accounts etc lend legitimacy to a group of people who live in the shadows sort of speak. By keeping the immigration system, including any potential guest worker programs legal, then appropriate forms of ID's, including drivers licences wouldn't be a problem. I don't blame the immigrants themselves as much as an ineffective government that refuses for whatever reason to confront this whole mess and get the situation under control. Their only solution to date seems to be neverending amnesties and other goodies which only encourage more illegal immigration.

How and why would we want to NOT allow Consulate ID's for bank accounts? I mean, the "legitimate" people that are here as guests (passports, green cards, consulate, etc.) do need a way of living, I would guess.

Further, in getting back to state drivers licenses, I do believe Tennessee (and one other state, can't remember) is already doing what Georgia is proposing to do. i.e. giving drivers licenses to illegal. This is a very dangerous practice that I think you and I are in agreement on.

In fact, I do think my sentiments and yours match very closely. Perhaps it is only a difference of looking at "the glass as half empty versus half full."

As a resident of California, I am simply in belief that you can't just export all the illegal's. Some "different" solution is needed, and the current one being discussed is "guest worker." Problem being that we can't control the illegal's now, it will be even more difficult (most likely) if we come up with some new category of being here.

I WOULD feel that IF (and that's a big IF) we end up with a "guest worker" program, it must be defined, controlled, and federally mandated not state mandated. The biggest problem we have with such a proposal, although it has great sentimental value and is good for PR with Mexico, is that none of this is laid out. You can't have Texas, Arizona or California be in control (for example) of how many guest workers there are, etc.

Re:

"...So, basically, you're saying that lawlessness and disregard for the duly enacted statutes of the United States and the Several States, are just part of doing business in America. Not only should the aliens break the law by coming here in the first place, the people hiring them should break not only the laws against hiring them, but also the minimum wage laws, the state and federal fair employment practices laws, and a bevy of other laws and regulations, just for the sake of business expediency and lower prices......"

Awwww crap.

No, actually we were into two different themes and as two other
posters remarked, one has little to do with the other.

First.... In my opinion, we need immigration. But we need it in a
more legal atmosphere. Let 'em work here as an alien, but do so
with our knowing they're here.

Second..... As long as we have too many illegal aliens here now
and no way to locate them, the idea of using a driver's license
application to identify them sounded reasonable.

Our immigration and nationalization services and policies need
revamping. We created a bureaucratic monster that serves
no useful purpose, other than to send Cuban kids back to Cuba.

In my afterthoughts, and in response to another poster's noting
that the damned driver's licenses are being used as valid IDs for
voting, etc... well... -that- has got to stop. We should not be allowing
the use of a driver's license to be a validating document for voting
privileges. Nor should it be used as a validating document for any
legal endeavor, aside from driving in the state it's issued.

Third.... No alien should be entitled to collect benefits from programs
designed for citizens exclusively. They are entitled to "legal due process"
in our system of jurisprudence, but not welfare benefits, unemployment
benefits, health benefits, etc. that are funded with the taxation of American
citizens.

That is not to say we should turn our backs to those in need [that just
happen to be temporarily on our soil], but it should never be extended
beyond a reasonable amount of time. That is, we should offer assistance
to those unable to function [health reasons, etc], until the individual[s] |
can either become citizens, leave or be properly removed.

We should be a Nation of caring; giving, but we should not be a doormat
for those that seek only to take advantage [illegal alien, citizen, or
otherwise]. We gain more from teaching a trade, than giving away it's
product. [you need shoes? here's how to make them]

The issue [and topic] was: Should we offer driver's licenses to illegal
aliens. And to that, I would suggest it as a way to locate those that
are here illegally. But we must stop using the license for any reason
beyond identifying a state's permission for an individual to drive in
that state. It's only a "driving ability qualifier" and any other use as
any sort of "qualifier" should be forbidden.

Howzatt?

What you don't understand amigo is that the demand for illegals is driven by large multi-nationals who want to pay a barely livable wage and then let let the suckers, oops I meant taxpayers bear the rest of the burden to have these people in our midst. Add to that all the companies that EVADE taxes by hiring illegals or contractors that use illegals and you now have a system that is nothing more than a race to the bottom for middle-class Americans and honest small businesspeople. Hospitalization is now out of sight because so many hospitals have to take the cost of free medicine to illegals and pass it on to the suckers, oops I meant taxpayers. You cheap labor people make me sick, it sure was amazing that we somehow built a country that was the envy of the world without the help of millions of illegal Mexicans, now we're a laughingstock with El Presidente Fox howling away at our stupidity.

re:
"....What you don't understand amigo....."

What I do understand, are those that wish to lay blame to
any scapegoat they can. Assigning blame is great for the
liberals, but it's always a dark cloud when a so-called
"conservative" does it.

This Nation cannot manufacture goods that we can afford,
thanks to escalated wages and benefits that our American
workers unions demand. And along with the increased health
benefits that we demand, come the higher price-tag attached.

It is our Government's demand for mandatory insurance, that
drives the price higher for insurance, not a few illegal aliens
taking liberty with the system.

To suggest all the ills of this Nation; it's economy; it's manufacturing;
it's high unemployment rate; it's homeless; those collecting welfare
benefits, are the result of "illegal immigrants", is as absurd as it is
a delirium of thought.

We should not be catering to illegal immigrants, but we should not
be attempting to assign blame to who is not responsible, either.

Go ahead and use whatever phrase you want as in "laying blame" but what I'm discussing is called reality. I'm not talking about a "few illegals" massaging the system, these programs to service these millions of people amount to billions of dollars nationally. These funds come from the pockets of middle-class America and it's forcing many women out of their households into the workforce to the detriment of millions of American families.

You've also fallen for this notion that the wages historically paid to American workers have kept companies from competing in the marketplace. We have countless corporations move manufacturing to countries that supply workers at slave labor wages yet the so-called savings have never been passed on to American consumers. Look at the escalation in prices we've seen over the last couple decades for shoes, shirts, pants, food etc. all now produced in these low wage countries yet the price tag is now a multiple of what it was back in the 70's and 80's. Free trade was nothing more than a scam to de-industrialize America and decimate the middle-class in order to further line the pockets of the multinationals, pure and simple.

You do have several good points but what we're seeing is a colonization of this country by a foreign power, with the assistance of our own gov't. for the benefit of faceless, godless, nationless corporations who only worship the almighty dollar. I hope someday that you truly understand the reality of our situation and the savage price we'll all pay in the future.

Look at the escalation in prices we've seen over the last couple decades for shoes, shirts, pants, food etc. all now produced in these low wage countries yet the price tag is now a multiple of what it was back in the 70's and 80's.

That's a point that is seldom brought up by the free traders who want the cheap labor. Nike sneakers used to be made here, with the cost of them high, about $100.00, but the workers made a decent wage.

They moved the company to Asia, paying the child labor about 50 cents an hour, but the price of the sneaker is still, if not more, than it was here. Someone's getting rich, and it's not the workers.

The same thing is going on with illegal immigrants into this country. The corporations are using them to cut costs, but the prices don't come down, and the executives get their 20 million dollar Christmas bonuses.

Free enterprise is one thing, but if these companies don't have a strong, middle class with buying power to purchase their goods, then how do they plan to stay in business? Henry Ford, for all his imperfections understood that, which is why he began offering his workers a livable wage. Now Ford is like the rest of them...screw the American worker, it's only the green for themselves that matters.

Eventually it's all going to come crashing down on them.

re:
"...these programs to service these millions of people amount
to billions of dollars nationally...."

Hogwash. There aren't "millions" of illegal immigrants in this Nation,
nor does this Nation spend "billions of dollars" for any programs in
their behalf.

re:
"....We have countless corporations move manufacturing to countries
that supply workers at slave labor wages yet the so-called savings
have never been passed on to American consumers. Look at the
escalation in prices we've seen over the last couple decades for shoes,
shirts, pants, food etc. all now produced in these low wage countries
yet the price tag is now a multiple of what it was back in the 70's and 80's......"

Oh really?

In the 70s-80s, my telephone ancillary devices cost four times as much,
prices of all electronic ware were astronomical compared to now.

WalMart sells shoes for $3 per pair on clearance; normal pricing of
their shoes are $15-$30. I can remember paying $75 for a pair of
Florsheim shoes in the 60s and having to have the sole repaired two
months later.

Stores buy clothing at a small fraction of the price you pay. Haven't
you noticed 50% sales at the end of season? They make money even
at 50%. One client of ours pays under $2.00 for shirts she sells for
$85.00 [and up] in her shop. Amazing, isn't it? They have you believing
it's the "multinationals" that are doing it? I have news for you my friend,
it's American greed, not outside forces. We are our own worst enemy.

The imports, imported labor, and foreign manufacturing have provided
this Nation's businesses with higher profits, higher American wages and
the ability for the American to buy products falling within their budgets.

re:
"..we're seeing is a colonization of this country by a foreign power...."

Radio City Music Hall in NYC was bankrupt and about to be a memory,
when it was purchased by those of a foreign Nation. It stands and operates
today stronger than before, thanks to that purchase. Money from those
in foreign Nations are supporting many, many businesses that would otherwise
have failed. Rather than shudder at the investments into our Nation, we
should welcome it.

Actors and actresses that live in foreign nations make their great wealth
here and take it back to their nation's banks. Yet the plight of some Mexican
working for pennies to your dollar, who is taking the cash back to support
his family until they can afford to move here and become citizens, is denounced?

We at one time welcomed immigration, now the "conservatives" appear to
hate the notion that we offer anything to foreigners.

In my opinion, that's either a setup by the liberals to cast "conservatism" in
the darkest light, or just plain ignorance by those falling for the propaganda.

Maybe it's time the "conservatives" tear down that foolish statue in NY,
it's words have become meaningless.

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