Camp for Nude Witches Fights Closing

Reuters ^ | 11-28-2001

[Cagey]

LEAVENWORTH, Kan. (Reuters) - A Kansas retreat that caters to witches and pagan rituals is fighting for survival amid community talk that naked witches may be weaving magical spells in the moonlight.

The owners of the Gaea Retreat Center, a 168-acre camp west of Kansas City that is home to such annual events as the Gaea Goddess Gathering and a "Heartland Pagan Spiritual event" filed suit on Monday in Leavenworth County District Court after county commissioners effectively put the retreat out of business by denying it a renewal of its land use permit.

"They say they're afraid of us, what we do here, the sound of drums. ... They don't know how lucky they are to have us as their neighbors," caretaker Wanda Roths said. "We're very quiet, very peaceful. There has never been any trouble out here."

The Leavenworth County commissioners denied the renewal for the permit, issued six years ago, in late October after a community petition raised accusations that the retreat fostered public nudity, pedophilia, and illegal drug and alcohol use. Neighbors also expressed concern about devil worship.

The suit claims the commissioners' denial is illegal and unconstitutional, as well as violating laws protecting freedom of religious expression and practice.

Lawyers for the county declined to comment.

The retreat denies any illegal activity, and county officials say there is no evidence of any.

Roths said there are "clothing optional" locations on the retreat grounds, and witches, Wiccans and other pagans do sometimes hold nighttime meetings around bonfires. But the retreat at times also attracts more traditional religious followers, she said.

Gaea, which means "Mother Earth," offers sanctuary to a variety of alternative religions and lifestyles, according to Roths. "We accept anybody," she said.

Before its current incarnation, the sprawling site was a church camp.

[putupon]

Are these young, flakey blonde hottie witches or are they old, wrinkled up ugly witches?

[Hemingway's Ghost]

But then again, if you are in a private nudist camp you are doing public nudity. The definition of public is not: a place where people are dressed or on public property.

Nice try, but no. In a legal sense, what's "public" and what's "private" is fairly well-defined, and it's nothing like you've estimated.

[ThomasMore]

Do thy own will shall be the whole of the law

Liberalism leads to this!

[eastsider]

I was merely trying to find out whether jmit's "principles" were absolute. Since you seem to be asking the question of me, however, I do not believe that the right to practice one's religion is absolute. I believe that right is bound by concern for other human rights — for example, no human sacrifice. So, yes, I do believe the government has the duty to consider social order in recognizing religious freedom and the authority to restrict certain "religious" practices.

[theartfuldodger]

You mean the "wisest man in the world", King Solomon who had hundreds of wives would be arrested in America today?

King Solomon spent the last half of his life trying to break all the wisdom he expounded in the first half of his life. Nothing wrong with the wisdom, just the man. Such is the sad condition of the human race.

[biblewonk]

Nice try, but no. In a legal sense, what's "public" and what's "private" is fairly well-defined, and it's nothing like you've estimated.

You are talking about the court of law now. Maybe the concern of the city is the morality of people all just getting naked together. This would be a classic case of imposing your morality on someone else but that is what all law is about.

[All-American Medic]

What is immoral or amoral about nudity?? Did you miss the word "public" They are on private property, well secluded from the rest of the town. Its not your neighbor in the house next door walking around naked in his front yard. I guess you better jump out of the shower and put clothes right on in your own house, because your house although private, sometimes has visitors which makes it "public". Be careful, your townsfolk might want to throw you out.

[biblewonk]

Unless thy own will includes owning a 50 calliber rifle or keeping your wealth or posting the 10 commandments or praying in a 'public' place. etc etc etc.

[laotzu]

Hello. I hope that this day finds you well.

[slhill]

Agreed. However, you can do this simply by prosecuting under existing law. What's being described here is an attempt to use state power to shut down a place where people are gathering to do weird, possibly immoral and possibly distasteful *legal* stuff. If they were killing kids, everyone would be for prosecution. If they were stealing from the neighbours, ditto. Nude dancing? That's a lot more dubious.

[biblewonk]

What is immoral or amoral about nudity?? Did you miss the word "public" They are on private property, well secluded from the rest of the town. Its not your neighbor in the house next door walking around naked in his front yard. I guess you better jump out of the shower and put clothes right on in your own house, because your house although private, sometimes has visitors which makes it "public". Be careful, your townsfolk might want to throw you out.

I wish you had asked the question, what is wrong with being naked with a hundred other people who all want to be naked with you. That is closer to the conversation at hand than your statement. Surely there is nothing wrong with being naked with a 100 other people of ALL ages and playing volley ball with them and doing ballet classes with them. Surely there is nothing in the world wrong with nudist colonies at all is there. No, no harm could ever come of that could it.

[tonycavanagh]

I was not discussing the relative merits or difference of the various religions I was only pointing out, how people use certain accusations as part of an operation against a group that they do not like.

I remember in North Ireland on patrol with members of the RUC and one a protestants was telling me how all Catholics were dirty lazy and bred faster than rabbits, as a catholic I found it amusing when I pointed out that I was a catholic he stated well not all of them

This article just underpins a major point which is that people always seem more interested in denying others there rights than defending there own rights. This always allows governments to operate the divide and rule policy, many people who attack the WOD and opposes some forms of censorship do not because they are all smut freaks, sex mad or drug addicts, but because they understand that what you ask a government to do to others eventually the government will do to you

Tony

[laotzu]

operative principles here are that your neighbors should control...

Whoa!! You read all that in between my scribblings?

Please, walk me through this would you?

[slhill]

Better make sure the local swimming pools have individual cubicles, then. Are you saying that a community should be able to boot people out of town if it doesn't like what they do in private, even if they haven't broken the law?

[All-American Medic]

"Yes, that's the only reason. Have you ever heard "An it harm none, do thy own will"? That is the fundamental commandment of paganism except for Satanismm it is "Do thy own will shall be the whole of the law". Don't the people of the community have the right to do their own will too? It is their will not to have witches in their community practicing their version of "do thy own will". That is quite a blank check to have and even in a free country there are limitations as to what religious freedom buys you." So then honestly, you do not believe in religious freedom?? Doesnt sound like a conservative to me. And yes there are limits to religious freedom, when the practice of religion violates the law (ie human sacrifice). None of which was done here by these people. You are opening up a HUGE pandora's box here. I will remind you every time on every other thread that you post on, that in this thread you have stated your opposition to religious freedom, and by default have lost your right to protest whenever a majority liberal community decides that Christians practicing their religious beliefs, violates the "spirit of the community." You have just lost your ability to defend: anti-abortion protests, the banning of christmas or nativity scenes from public property and any other christian cause that is deemed appropriate. You have also lost your voice in opposing any liberal town board's attempt to evict, remove or take the voice away from any conservative religious elements or houses of worship in the community. If you do otherwise, you are simply a hypocrite.

[Chemnitz]

It's funny now that paganism and the Muslim religion deserve special attention and protection. Our country was not founded as an "anything but Christian" country but as a Christian country. Religious tolerance meant Christianity in general (after a few dust-ups) and included Jews in time. It is easy to engage in a lot of illegal activities in the name of pagan religion. Obviously we have a fifth column at work among the Muslims in America. Many Muslims knew in advance or celebrated afterwards the 9-11 attacks.

I wish I knew the answer to this. I think our criminal laws should be enforced against those who use religion to shield their illegal activities. We really do not need "clothing optional" public areas. The nudists can use their homes and private clubs for that.

I think our Founding Fathers would be catatonic over the modern definition of freedom.

I believe in individual freedom and responsibility.

[All-American Medic]

"I wish you had asked the question, what is wrong with being naked with a hundred other people who all want to be naked with you. That is closer to the conversation at hand than your statement. Surely there is nothing wrong with being naked with a 100 other people of ALL ages and playing volley ball with them and doing ballet classes with them. Surely there is nothing in the world wrong with nudist colonies at all is there. No, no harm could ever come of that could it." No harm could come of it as long as all the participants are consenting adults, who were fully aware of what the acitivities would consist of when they arrived. If there is a crime that takes place, it is because of the lack of self-control of one individual, not the actions of an entire group. Thats like blaming the pro-life movement for the murder of an abortionist.

[Gerfang]

These pagans wanted nothing more than to be left alone to practice their religion. They kept to themselves on their isolated camp and bothered no one. Yet, this was so offensive to local social conservatives they used what amounts to a legal loophole to close down what amounts to a rival church.

We have social conservatives using the coercive powers of the state to suppress another religion. If what I’ve read is correct this a clear-cut violation of 1st amendment rights. I hope they sue based upon religious discrimination and I hope the Witches win.

I’d say this is just the sort of case for the ACLJ to take, but I won’t hold my breath.

[Hemingway's Ghost]

You are talking about the court of law now. Maybe the concern of the city is the morality of people all just getting naked together. This would be a classic case of imposing your morality on someone else but that is what all law is about.

Crazy me, here I was thinking our nation was run by a set of laws, not by individual or collective whim. Does due process mean anything to you? Seems to me if you're going to take away the right to assemble by imposing restrictions on it, you better have some legal due process to back you up. Judging from this article, the only justification the board gave was "cuz."

Especially where privacy rights are concerned. You read like the type of person who'd scream and kick to infinity if your precious right to worship God in the manner you see fit was taken away from you. Why is it so difficult for you to apply the same standards to those who worship differently than you do?

[All-American Medic]

"I wish I knew the answer to this. I think our criminal laws should be enforced against those who use religion to shield their illegal activities. We really do not need "clothing optional" public areas. The nudists can use their homes and private clubs for that." Hello!! Read the article, it is a private retreat or "club" per se, these people did not roll into town and start setting up clothing optional areas on Main Street, they purchased a private area of 180 acres well away from the center of town. You have to pay a fee to go there and or go there purposefully. You believe in individual freedom?? What about this group's rights?? Also the county commision even stated there is NO EVIDENCE of any illegal activity there.