TWA FLIGHT 800

3rd party | 11/27/01 | Fred Roberts

[sandydipper]

Today I had conversation with a commercial pilot who said that in July of 1996 just after the SHOOT DOWN of TWA800 a co-worker also a commercial pilot told him that he was sent to Paris to pick up the TWA president and fly him back to DC. The second pilot was a military pilot at the time and said that as soon as they returned to DC the TWA guy was helicoptered to the White House.

[philosofy123]

If the government admits that our enemies are inside the USA, and are able to hurt us at will. That will creat loss of confidence by our population. But the fact that airforce-one was going crazy, the morning of Sept 11, indicates that our intelligence knew that our emies are more than capable of shooting a missile at our President aircraft!

[barf]

Jim Hall, a political appointee, and his stooge Bernie Loeb were likely behind the ruse stating a CWT event rather than what the radar evidence shows. There was an effort to mask what Exhibit 13A showed by adding clutter in Exhibit 13B but the horse was already out of the barn. Thankfully, clearer heads must have prevailed when Exhibit 13E was released. One major problem in 13E is the prevalence of 102000 radar data which shows up when the sled was descending and when something else was released from the P3. My own reason for the accident was the P3 leaving for W-105 one hour early. Can you explain why the P3 crew: the pilot, the copilot and the flight engineers were quickly reassigned after the crash? When Zulu times are converted to local times, it is related to Standard Time. W-105 was to go hot a 8 PM Standard Time but the P3 crew apparently left at 8 PM Daylight Savings Time since it was in the dead of summer. I assume that the missile was to be launched at the presence of the sled and when the sled showed up early, the missile was launched prematurely as well. I feel that the test was to occur approximately 20 miles southwest of where the crash occurred. The P3 and the surfaced sub were running nearly parallel with one another at the time of the crash. The P3 crew likely did not realize that they were early until after the target acquisition radar came on in the submarine. In a panic mode, something else was released from the P3, likely a drone to draw the missile away from the now known proximity of the TWA B747. But whatever was released had no effect and the missile homed in on the B747. The released object appeared to level off at the same altitude as the B747 but the NTSB cluttered up its path with 102000 data. If someone has the original radar tape, we could see where it went relative to altitude. The sled continued on so it was not the sled being cut away though that could be a logical thing to do to draw the missile away from the B747. TWA800 was clearly in the wrong place at the wrong time through no fault of their own. If the P3 had not shown up early, TWA800 could have been at a much higher altitude. TWA800 had been instructed to climb earlier but that order was rescinded while the P3 was crossing its projected path. After the P3 crossed the projected path of TWA800, TWA800 was redirected to climb and was climbing when the missile test occurred. ATC allowed more than 6,000 feet vertical separation between the P3 and TWA800. If the sled had been all the way out to around two miles behind the P3, the line sag would have been around a full mile. This may be why 6,300 feet were allowed in vertical separation. The time that the TWA800 were directed to climb, then not to climb and then to climb can be seen in the CVR record. The presence of the P3 messed up what could have been an uneventful trip across the ocean. TWA900 which was trailing TWA800 was at 19,000 feet therefore if the P3 had not shown up, TWA800 may have been at that altitude as well.

[barf]

If you believe that spending large sums of money makes something worthwhile, you need a good course in history. Our government does not manufacture a product. Most government projects devote 90% for administration leaving only 10% to get something done. Bureaucracies gain fame is spending large amounts of money on boondoggles. This NTSB investigation was a boondoggle of the worst kind. The cause of the crash was known early on and the reconstruction was only one small part of the boondoggle. The reconstruction left out the point of impact which was behind the portion shown. How else did PETN get on the cargo bay curtain? A part of the rear fuselage structure ended up in the cockpit. The exit point of the KKV was likely the large hole in the starboard side of the forward fuselage. The NTSB admitted that extraordinary damage occurred to the rear fuselage structure and rear seats but attributed that to water impact. As if the rest of the debris did not impact the water? Exhibit 13E showed the impact debris centered on a line roughly 20 degrees off the path of the aircraft to the right hand side. The fan shaped debris pattern appeared to be around 40 degrees in width. The cloud of chaff was off to the left hand side of the flight path but it may have been displaced from its real position. The chaff held to a steady altitude of 14,400 to 14,800 feet of altitude. The presence of chaff proves that the missile launch was a test rather than terrorist action though current politicians are trying to blame the terrorists for that as well. Not having an explosive warhead also disproves terrorist involvement. Only a supersonic SM-2 size missile could break up a B747 due to impact alone. Shoulder launched missiles without warheads should only bounce off of a jumbo. That is why the government test off Eglin AFB was so ludicrous to begin with. The only explosion which was visible to most witnesses happened around 20 seconds after the missile impact. The cost of the Eglin AFB test was only a small part of the unnecessary boondoggle. Having CalTech take part in the ruse was a disgrace to our higher education assets. CalTech used to have a good reputation, but no longer, to be pigeons.

[acehai]

Show me someone credible who thinks 800 was shot down

Here y'go... Former NTSB Official Backs Missile Theory

21 July, 1998 By Scott Hogenson CNS Executive Editor

(CNS) A former National Transportation Safety Board member says he can no longer support the conclusion of the NTSB that a spark in a fuel cell caused the explosion and crash of TWA Flight 800 more than two years ago.

Dr. Vernon L. Grose, who also served as a regular commentator on CNN during its coverage of the incident, told CNS in an exclusive interview that new evidence about the explosion indicates that a possible missile detonation may have brought down the airliner, killing all 230 passengers and crew on board.

During a presentation of information Monday on the crash, Grose said he saw previously undisclosed evidence that a near-proximity missile explosion may have brought down the jet.

"It disturbed me to see photographic evidence of impinging bent in, not bent out skin of the aircraft forward of the center fuel tank, and that is sufficiently primary evidence that should be explained away."

Unlike some missiles that must make contact with or pierce a target before exploding, a near-proximity missile need only approach a target before detonation, with the ensuing shock or 'pressure wave' being sufficient to bring down the target. Grose, who spent six hours on CNN as an expert commentator the night of the explosion, said the new information indicates that a blast occurred on the outside of the aircraft, not the inside. In describing the debris recovered from around the area in which the fuel tanks are thought to have exploded, Grose said "The wreckage that they've assembled is imploded, rather than exploded at that point," indicating a pressure from outside the aircraft.

A number of people, including former aviators and aircraft accident investigators, have said that one or more missiles were responsible for the crash, and dozens of eyewitnesses have reportedly told FBI investigators that they saw what appeared to have been objects streaking through the sky toward the aircraft the night of the incident. "The idea of a pressure wave has some merit that needs to be either answered or dismissed, and that's where I felt that the NTSB had not really fully explained that," Grose said. Grose was also critical of some aspects of the FBI's handling of the case, saying the bureau's refusal to turn over complete information on eyewitness interviews hurts the investigation and generates more speculation.

One of the things Grose said that caused him to "recalibrate" his position on the cause of the crash was "the reticence of the FBI to join and expose what they learned in their interrogation of witnesses, which they cut the NTSB out of."

"If you don't come to clean resolution, you invite all kinds of conspiracy theory," Grose said. "I really object to the FBI thinking that they can keep all that they did as black secrets if in fact they endorse the center fuel tank (explosion theory)." A member of the NTSB from 1983-1984, Grose also took part in Vice President Al Gore's White House Commission on Aviation Safety and Security in 1997. For two years, Grose discounted the missile theory surrounding the downing of TWA Flight 800, and even debated the issue on national television. His list of media credentials includes appearances on NBC's Today Show, ABC's Good Morning, America, and World News Tonight, and more than 100 appearances on CNN. "Even then I was holding out against both bomb and missile (theories) until we had more evidence," said Grose. But new forensic data and information alleging that the FBI suppressed eyewitness testimony has apparently provided Grose with the evidence he needed to revise his thinking on what caused the crash of TWA Flight 800.

"There's no question that the FBI shut down the investigation," Grose said.

(And if you think he's changed his mind, Here's what Mr Grose told O'Reilly immediately following the American 587 New York crash.)

GROSE: Well, I tell you, I did 170 interviews on TWA 800, probably more than anybody else. And I do think there were at times a cover-up. So I'm a little concerned about that, that it not happen here.

O'REILLY: All right, let's talk about that. You don't believe it was an accident in TWA 800?

GROSE: I still have reservations about TWA 800 as to whether the center wing tank was the initiating event. It did blow, but whether it was the initiating event,

I believe is still up for grabs.

[SBeck]

Grose is a Celebrity News Network/Communist News Network analyst. His credibility is somewhat suspect since he wasn't even a member of the board when the accident took place. More than likely CNN used him as an outsider throwing stones.

Look fellas, if you want to believe what you want to believe, fine, it's a free country. But all the bellicose shouting will not do one thing to change the probable cause of the accident. TWA 800 was not an act of terrorism, sabotage or the result of friendly fire. TWA 800 was that 1:1,000,000,000 shot that no one, not Boeing, TWA or FAA could have foreseen.

[mlo]

Just one more item on the massive pile of evidence that TWA 800 was shot down. Thanks for the post.

Uh, no. That was only evidence that the president of TWA was taken to the White House.

[barf]

While stating that it is not Friendly Fire, please explain the fact that the P3 was towing a missile target near the TWA800 at the time of the crash. Clearly it was not initiated by a CWT explosion, so what was it? Since you are so cock sure of what it was not, please explain what it was, rather than what it wasn't. The cartoon shown on ABC-TV with Bernie Loeb assisted by shill Sam Donaldson showed flames passing through the passenger cabin but not a single victim suffered burns. Please explain this as well. You pretend to be knowledgeable but telling everyone what it wasn't doesn't take smarts; but telling us what it was does. Show us how smart you really are.

[acehai]

His credibility is somewhat suspect since he wasn't even a member of the board when the accident took place.

Vernon L. Grose, BS, MS, DSc.

...began his professional career as an applied physicist at The Boeing Company. A world authority in applying systems methodology to managing risk, he has served as an executive in three major corporations, university professor in Europe as well as the United States, and consultant to Fortune 100 corporations. President Reagan appointed him to the National Transportation Safety Board and the National Highway Safety Advisory Commission. The White House assigned him for one year to the Associate Administrator for R&D at the Environmental Protection Agency to implement systematic management of risk. A consultant to the President's Aviation Safety Commission and an invited expert to the 1997 White House (Gore) Commission on Aviation Safety & Security, he has been CNN's Risk Analyst. He has given over 300 interviews on many topics to TV, radio, and written media. The National Academy of Sciences has named him to three commissions, and in 1981, the Peoples Republic of China invited him to address their Academy of Sciences in Beijing. Author of MANAGING RISK: Systematic Loss Prevention for Executives which is widely used in universities and now in its third printing, his professional papers have appeared internationally in over 60 journals and periodicals. He is the originator of SMART™ (Systems Methodology Applied to Risk Termination).

I believe President Reagan appointed Dr. Grose to the NTSB several years before the events of July 17, 1996. I leave it up to the reader to decide whose credibility is suspect...Dr. Grose or SBeck.

[barf]

How do you explain the towed object behind the P3? It shows up very clearly in Exhibit 13A. Why the NTSB did not detail it indicates something to hide. They tried to mask it with clutter in 13B but went back to something reasonable in 13E. One can determine the lead and lag object by the linearity of the two symbols. Using the shorter spans between symbols give oblique angles which defy physics. What is your analysis of the FDR anomaly listing on Exhibit 10A? To speak as an authority, you must have done your homework.

[Silly]

dip,

Why do you take advantage of people's tragic deaths to drag out conspiracy theories? It's a lot of nonsense, and no one's buying it.

[barf]

The only error on Sandy's part is the Stinger portion. The guilty missile is only used by our Navy and possibly our allies. Do you go along with the telling of lies by our representative government? I would like to believe that they represent the best and brightest but TWA800 proved otherwise. They could have told us that they could not solve the cause rather than lie to us. It was a stupid lie when looking back on it because the radar evidence shows what really happened. One cannot lie about hard evidence. The showing of the cartoon on ABC-TV proved that our fourth estate is of no real value to us in preventing fraud by our government. ABC-TV acted in collusion with the government in this fraud. Living up to P.T.Barnum's standards is no excuse for our media as the protector of our rights.

[Silly]

Do you go along with the telling of lies by our representative government?

Oh, the tired old line, "You must not be bothered when our government lies."

Do you go along with every conspiracy you hear?

[barf]

Since you purport to be a knowledgeable person in aeronautical subjects, I might ask you as well: What is your analysis of the anomaly listing in Exhibit 10A? A bona fide aeronautical engineer would have done an analysis of these. BTW, I worked on Apollo and was inside the S-II booster which carried the first landing mission, Apollo 11, to the moon. I most certainly would not claim that that was a fraud. The connecting shield which is seen in tapes of the booster separation may have been the actual part which I was doing final design on. NASA flight director Gene Kranz was a schoolmate of mine except he was behind me. I remember him when he had bright red hair and clipped his sliderule to his belt which swung like Zorro's sword. He was laughed at in school but no one is laughing now.

[2 Kool 2 Be 4-Gotten]

No, the terrorists simply are prooving to the people in the know, that we can hurt you on your own soil if you don't do what we want. Our government should have had better intelligence to monitor the moslem embasies. The more we get involved with moslem nations, the more they will learn, and steal from us, and bite us in the a--

You may be right, but it doesn't dispute the point that I made. If terrorists shot down Fl. 800, they haven't (as far as I know) announced it. Maybe their goals are to make their point quietly, but that is not the usual mode of operation for terrorists (even the name, terrorists implies that you are trying to spread terror, i.e. make many people aware of your ability to inflict murder and mayhem). So if they are keeping quiet about it, it would not be the normal mode of operation.

[Harrison Bergeron]

Been a while. Nice to talk to you again.

I have to be honest and tell you that I think neither the kookburgers nor the government have anything useful to publically say about TWA800. There are too many unanswered questions. And before you make your pat rebuttal of "Have you ever watched a missile launch?", the answer is, yes, I've seen quite a few. Live. Ground based and ship based. From close up, you blink, you missed it. From a few miles away, on a clear day, the perspective is better and more reliable... not less. The eyewitness accounts (mostly) paint a credible picture of something striking the aircraft from outside. I don't know what, or from where, but the center fuel tank story and the stupid CIA video were embarrasments from an engineering perspective

I have the utmost respect for your opinions, which are usually based on knowledge and experience. But Navy Seals singled out by exclusive presidential EO for complete news blackout weren't swimming around the wreckage site for months looking for the purser's box.

I really do value your opinions. You're one of my "go to" posters when the military stuff starts hitting the fan. But your rebuttals re TWA800 generally amount to argumentum ad hominem - sometimes in forward gear (as in "You don't know squat!"), and sometimes in reverse gear (as in "I know about this stuff, it's technical, and you wouldn't understand.")

I'm one of the many FReepers who are thankful that Rivero with his incessant TWA800 posts blaming the US Navy was finally banned. I believe he was an anti-military anti-American disinformation tool more than a conspiracy theorist. Somebody with your background could do a lot to clear the air re TWA800 with technical info if it was really just an accident. But somebody with your background using poor argument technique will only end up further fanning the flames of conspiracy. It would be better to just ignore the issue altogether.

Cheers, and Merry Christmas!

HB

[Young Werther]

I suppose you can believe the likes of Kallstrom who maintain that the "DIESEL FUEL" in the center fuel tank exploded, (I heard him say this on O'Reilly. We all know that jet engines burn diesel fuel...NOT!!!!!!)

Visit TWA 800 Investigation Site

The missiles, the witnesses the cover up are all linked/posted. Try reading what George Stephanopolus and Sen Kerry have to say about the "bombing" of TWA 800.

[Harrison Bergeron]

"...diesel fuel...NOT!!!!!!

JP4, aka "jet fuel," is diesel. It's just more highly refined. You can't afford a flameout (the turbine equivalent of a piston miss) at 300 kts and 30,000 feet.

[barf]

Terrorists were definitely not involved. A KKV would not be available to them unless they stole a complete Navy vessel with its VLT. Plus, the dog did not bark. Terrorists can down aircraft but TWA800 was downed by a Naval accident. Stinger type missiles have downed many aircraft in other countries, principally in Africa. A shoulder launched missile should allow time for a Mayday to be issued by the crew. The thing which hit TWA800 fragmented the aircraft immediately according to the radar record. The FDR anomalies attest to this as well. The nose folded to the right and back; the empennage broke to the left and downward; the outer wing panels spun off in a CW direction. The CCW yaw caused the engines to land in a CCW rotated position relative to their inflight direction. The violence of the breakup caused the victims to be decapitated. It is likely that no one suffered. Death came immediately. Though some seats were charred, the victims near the CWT remained unburned due to being ejected before the CWT flamed up. The victims who stayed with the nose or empennage were away from fuel containment. The portion which exploded in the massive fireball was likely the center fuselage portion with stubby wings attached. This explosion was the only one visible to the hundreds who saw any explosion proving that a missile without a warhead caused the crash, thusly a KKV. Since chaff was ejected at impact, this proved that terrorists were not involved as well. Terrorists would not use missiles which eject chaff rather than explode. No point.

[Sloth]

Pick the one that is most logical.

Since when are such decisions made logically by the gov't?

[Leesylvanian]

I heard that it was George Bush (x41) that flew to Paris to meet with Iranian officials...wait, that was October Surprise, my tinfoil must be off kilter. Let me get my hat and meds straightened out and I'll be right back...