“Attack on America” Not to Be Linked to End-time Bible Prophecy!

The Preterist Homepage ^ | Unknown | Ken Davies

[NATE4"ONE NATION"]

Attack on America” Not to Be Linked to End-time Bible Prophecy! These Are Not the “Last Days”! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (INDIANAPOLIS) - Christian evangelical endsayers are at it again and in a big way. Last week’s attack on America “is the beginning of the end,” they are saying. But, once again, they will be proven wrong! Unfortunately, their popular, gloom-and-doom, and “it’s-inevitable” message is destructive and counterproductive to U.S. efforts to fight terrorism. Their end-time scenario plays right into the hands of terrorists and incites hatred. Hal Lindsey said on TBN’s Praise the Lord program last Thursday [9/13/01] that U.S. efforts “will [only] delay the ultimate judgment of America. . . . we have to slip from power.” Best-selling author, John Noe (pronounced No-ee), and John Anderson, video producer and talk show host of the syndicated radio program Voice of Reason, condemn the role popular end-time interpretation of Bible prophecy has played and is playing in the unfolding of these tragic and cowardly events. “It is time to wake up to Biblical fact, not fiction, and re-evaluate this perverse misuse of past and precisely-fulfilled Scripture,” they contend. Noe’s award-winning book, Beyond the End Times, Scripturally and historically documents how the “last days” were confined to a 1st century timeframe and details how the fulfillment of all end-time Bible prophecy took place exactly as expected. Noe is an evangelical scholar who is challenging the doom-saying trend with solid substance. He is a Ph.D. in Theology candidate, an active member of the Evangelical Theological Society, and President of the Prophecy Reformation Institute. He has been featured on numerous media programs including Larry King Live and The 700 Club. Anderson is an experienced radio talk show host, a frequent guest on other national programs, and President of Lighthouse World Ministries. His just-released, 45-minute video, The Last Days, offers irrefutable evidence why modern-day end-time pundits like Hal Lindsey, Tim LaHaye, Jack Van Impe, and Pat Robertson are dead wrong, why our world is never going to end, and more. In stark contrast to the endsayers, Noe and Anderson are voicing a message of non-compromised hope and wholehearted Scriptural support for President Bush and our country’s positive efforts and long-term motivation to rid the world of this evil.

[NATE4"ONE NATION"]

Taht is my and the authors point. It doesn't mean it is the end times. It means we need to learn from it and continue on and repent.

[Aerial]

Revelation 1:1

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John.

[drstevej]

Context determines whether 1,000 is intended as a figure of speech (eg. 1,000 hills)or a literal expression. Your statement "1000 in prophecy does not equal 1000!" is an assumption. I think the context in Revelation and the Abrahamic covenant make a literal rendering of this number quite reasonable.

Nevertheless, I appreciate your comment.

[TopDog2]

I've seen that picture before, but something just struck me. The dome of the rock is supposed to be built over the site of David's Temple right? If so, when muslims bow to mecca, they are pointing their butts towards the Holy of Holies (see the picture). Nice, huh?

[Fithal the Wise]

Although most translations do use the word "shortly" if you check a Strong's Concordance you will find that the Greek word tachos (#5034) more properly denotes "speedily or quickly".

[Fithal the Wise]

There will be no flames, just an honest discussion.

The destruction of the Temple in 70 AD was a fulfilment of the first half of the verse 3 prophesy. That is why I began my comments with the second half of the verse: "... And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"

The split of prophesy into 2 parts separated by a vast gulf of time was shown in Luke 4:16-21 by Jesus closing the scroll in mid-sentence quoting Isaiah 61:1-2. Read this carefully to gain understanding of the precise way the bible uses prophesy.

Thus beginning with verse 4

v4-5 Who were the (many) false Chrst's (Messiah's) by 70 AD - the Roman Emporers did not come in His name.

v6 What were the wars (plural) and rumors of wars (plural)

v7 What nations and kingdoms rose against each other. Rome's empire doesn't appear to satisfy this description.

Please document the (plural) famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in several places circa 70 AD

v8-13 Please demonstrate Christians hated by ALL nations for His name's sake, not just Rome

v14 Do you really think the gospel of the kingdom was preached in ALL the world as a witness to ALL the nations

Do you honestly beleive that these verses more accurately portray 70 AD or today. For example, were more Christians killed for their beliefs then, or today in the Sudan alone?

I would be most pleased to discuss with you, the above or any other verses or aspects.

[mercy]

OK I've read most of this thread. It seems you wish to set up a new religion. A narrow new style to fit your own desires and proclivities. Is it not ever so. There is no 'TRUTH'. We get to make it up as we go along. UH UH!

Forget The Revelation of The Messiah to St. John. Since you don't even appear to be a Christian it is useless to argue from the most dificult book in the New Testament. Forget doctrine and forget intrepretation. Let's just look at the broad picture. Let's talk about monotheism. IF there is a God which I doubt you even accept ... He's been around for a long time and he MIGHT care about mankind. If He does he would not give out disparate revelations of His being and character. There must be only one revelation and one system. I nominate Judaism. It makes the most sense, has the best written record (verified and proven by the Dead Sea Scrolls) and posesses the best track record.

Christianity is simply 'modern' Judaism. Reconstituted for the masses. Judaism was always messianic and Christians simply believe Jesus of Nazareth WAS AND IS The Messiah. We accept every tenant of Judaism, we just took the idea of The Messiah more litterally and believe that indeed it is the very centrality of religion.

That said, one has to wonder ... just what IS God up to? What's the deal? Well, given that the Bible actually is God's revelation of Himself to mankind it is instructive to look at the story of the Bible with the simplicity of a child. What's the central theme. It is that man always fails without God. Every time the Jews turned away from God they fell apart. Every hero of the Bible went through his personal learning curve with God. It is all there in grisly detail. ( This is one of the supreme proofs of the authenticity of the book by the way. What other religion spends as many words airing it's heroes dirty laundry as it does extolling their virtues?)

Man's efforts to toss out any idea of The End Times is just the old story coming round again. It is a central theme of scripture for a very good reason. God has told us that he is going to let man prove once and for all that man is lost without Him. He's been trying to get the message across for a long time and we have been warned a thousand timeS. No matter. Mankind is going to prove it to himself to the final, greatest exponential degree.

It's only logical. What IS evil? Well, what was the original sin? Simply not believing and trusting God. That is what they did in the Garden. They distrusted God and did not believe His word. They believed another and their own wish fulfillment desires. Nothing has changed. This play will move on to the last act. Man's sin WILL be culminated and he will destroy himself to a final utter degree. Except that The Messiah promises that when it is all laid bare and no one can argue that man really did have a better idea .... 'those days will be cut short'.

Then all creation will see the proof. What God says is true. No one can argue. God's Word is Truth and there is no other.

[PeaceBeWithYou]

Hey, don't shoot me, I was simply stating the views of the Preterist, not endorsing them.

I agree with them upto the point where they claim that the second coming occured with the fall of Jerusalem. That is what the signs given are related to, not the second coming. Of that event there will be no signs. Note also that the time of tribulation is included with the fall of Jerusalem, not with the second coming.(a time of tribulation could be a sign, or it could also be a constant condition of the affairs of man.)

Consider the following discourse:

This chapter has long been one of great confusion and controversy. It has been used to support the following (erroneous)doctrines:

1) That the 2nd coming of Christ was actually the destruction of Jerusalem and there will be no future comings;(Preterist)

2) That everything in the New Testament (including Revelation) that speaks of the coming of Christ is actually speaking of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.(Historist)(some Partial Preterist also)

3) That the coming of Jesus will be marked by numerous signs mentioned in the Old and New Testaments.(Futurist)

The disciples were showing the beautiful temple buildings to Jesus (Matthew 24: v.1). Josephus said that the temple was "the most marvelous edifice which we have ever seen or heard of, whether we consider its structure, its magnitude, the richness of its every detail, or the reputation of its High Places." (Historian Flavious Josephus - War of the Jews Ch.6).

Jesus responds that these beautiful buildings will be torn down (v. 2)

The disciples connected Jesus' words with future events related to the Messianic kingdom, and thus asked three questions, all of which, in their minds, were to occur very close to one another:

Tell us, when will these things be, and
What will be the sign of your coming, and
Of the end of the age?

Jesus immediately begins to explain the events that will lead up to the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70. It will be a difficult time, and many will interpret the events to be signs pointing to the end. But Jesus warns them 4 times not to be "misled" (verses. 4,5,11,24).

Jesus teaches them that the "rumors of wars" and "famines" and "earthquakes" will not be the end of things (v.6). These things are merely the beginning (v. 8).

The "end" will come in verse 14, but only after the Gospel is preached in the whole world. It is apparent that Jesus does not intend this "end" (v. 14) to be the end of the world by the following facts:

(1) He continues on from there and discusses the destruction of Jerusalem and warns them to flee (v. 15ff)

(2) He discusses the tribulation that will come "after" those days (v. 29) The "end" that Jesus is referring to is the destruction of Jerusalem and the end of the Jewish system of religion as it was then (i.e. the temple, etc.). According to Paul, the Gospel was preached to the whole known world by the time he wrote the Colossian letter about 62 A.D. (Col. 1:6,23)

Next Jesus tells them in v. 15 of a sign that they will see that will warn them of the coming destruction. This sign is the "abomination of desolation." When they see this sign, they are to flee from the city (vs. 16ff). This "abomination of desolation" comes from the book of Daniel (9:27; 11:31; 12:11). When Daniel speaks to the "abomination of desolation" he is most likely referring to a man by the name of Antiochus Epiphanes who in 167 B.C. set up a pagan altar on the temple site and sacrificed a pig to Zeus (1 Macc.1:54-64; 2 Macc. 6:1-5). Thus what the "reader is to understand" is that another desecration of the temple is about to take place when they see this abomination of desolation. And what is this "abomination of desolation"? When we compare this with Luke's parallel account, the abomination is the Roman armies surrounding the city (Luke 21:20).

All of this information should prove valuable to the lives of Jesus' followers, for if heeded, it would save their lives. Jesus tells them: "Behold, I have told you in advance." (vs. 25)

Note: The destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70 was a very brutal and merciless slaying of the Jews. According to Josephus, 1,100,000 Jews lost their lives in the attack which lasted from April to September (War, 5.10.5; 6.9.4.).

In v. 29 Jesus mentions what will occur "immediately after the tribulation of those days." He then speaks in a favorite Jewish style of writing and speaking called apocalyptic. This type of language is not meant to be taken literally. It is language that speaks of important events in a cataclysmic way, and does not necessarily refer to the end of time. For example, note Old Testament examples of the following phrases:

a) The sun darkened - Refers to the fall of Babylon in Isaiah 13:10, the distress of Egypt in Ezek. 32:7, and in Peter's sermon on Pentecost in Joel 2:10, 31; Acts 2:20).

b) The stars falling - is used by Isaiah to refer to the fall of Edom (Is. 34:4).

c) Coming on the clouds - is a typical apocalyptic phrase referring to the Lord coming in judgment - Is. 19:1; Lam. 2:1; Ezek. 30:18).

Therefore, one does not need to insist that verses 29-31 refer to the Second Coming of Christ, but rather these verses demonstate that the coming of the Son of Man with the clouds is a symbol of His kingly reign and dominion (which would have become more firmly established after the Jewish system of faith was destroyed), and His pronounced judgment upon Jerusalem. Jesus wants His disciples to know that this destruction was not just an act by the Roman army. It was a symbol of Jesus coming in judgment upon the Jewish nation (like other prophets had predicted in earlier times) (Micah 3:12; Jer. 26:6-18).

9) Therefore, the entire chapter can be divided up accordingly:

a) vs. 1-35 refer to the events surrounding the destruction of Jerusalem and immediately afterwards.

b) vs. 36-51 refer to the Second Coming of Christ and the end of time.

Here are two evidences to support this division:

1) Everything up until verse 36 has a sign that is clearly identifiable (v. 15, 27, 30). However, concerning the Second Coming (v. 36ff) there will be no signs, and the Son of Man will come when no one expects it (vs. 42, 44, 50).

2) Jesus uses two main demonstrative pronouns that clearly show a transition from one time period to another. In v. 29 he speaks of those days" and "these things" in vs. 33, 34. He also says that "this generation" will not pass away until "these things" take place (referring to everything mentioned up to this point. When one considers Matthew's use of the words "this generation" it is clear he means people alive at the time of Jesus (which would mean the fall of the temple would occur before this generation passed) - cf. Mt. 1:17; 10:23; 11:16; 12:39, 41, 45; 23:36.

Then in verse 36 Jesus says "but of that day . . ." thereby changing the pronoun from "these" things to "that" day, it becomes clear that two different events are being discussed.

[dheretic]

"People who do not believe in God and an after-life have only a 50/50 chance of being right and they had better hope they aren't wrong."

I'm a christian (though I take damnation as a state of existance which I feel is far worse than location-damnation) but I have to say that if I were in their shoes.... I'd rather be right. I'd rather cease to exist when I die than burn in a firey pit for eternity.

[NATE4"ONE NATION"]

OK I've read most of this thread. It seems you wish to set up a new religion. A narrow new style to fit your own desires and proclivities. Is it not ever so. There is no 'TRUTH'. We get to make it up as we go along. UH UH! Forget The Revelation of The Messiah to St. John. Since you don't even appear to be a Christian it is useless to argue from the most dificult book in the New Testament. Forget doctrine and forget intrepretation. Let's just look at the broad picture. Let's talk about monotheism. IF there is a God which I doubt you even accept ... He's been around for a long time and he MIGHT care about mankind. If He does he would not give out disparate revelations of His being and character. There must be only one revelation and one system. I nominate Judaism. It makes the most sense, has the best written record (verified and proven by the Dead Sea Scrolls) and posesses the best track record.

Have "mercy" on my soul there Yahoo!!(You don't rate to be called Yeshua who is exactly who you think you are condeming me already!) You spaek out of ignorance and lies!! First off, this modern religion of doomdayism is only about 150 years old. Most Old prophecy teachers from the early church believed in a mild form of what I posted here but sinse you obviously don't study any history or Old Testament prophecy fufilment, you wouldn't know that.
There is no new religion here, just a glimmer of hope that maybe Christians will live in instead of that escape theory which will ultimately let them down and lead them astray. Try me with John. He is the one that told his audience that the last hour was upon them. I guess you would consider him a liar though eh?

[mercy]

You're sputtering. I did not condemn you. I only stated the simple fact that you have attested to. You are not a Christian. You are something else or other that does not accept the scripture as the Word of God. I do not hold any 'rapture theory' as an element of doctrine. Neither does Hal Lindsey, no matter how many lies you try to put in his mouth. Actual believing Christians do not need some modern day interpretation of scripture to know that God has numbered the days of man and that The End Times have been comming since the beginning and any knowledgable Bible reading Christian of the last two thousand years has known this because our Lord plainly tells us so in His Word. It is you and your ilk who are denying scripture and plainly showing the fruit of a blasphemer.

[NATE4"ONE NATION"]

I did not condemn you. I only stated the simple fact that you have attested to. You are not a Christian.
In otherwords I am condemed. Stop the word games.
I believe in God the Father. Jesus, God in the flesh. His resurection and ascention. The inspired and infallible Word of God. Salvation through Faaith, etc. Beyond this I need not justify myself to you!

know that God has numbered the days of man and that The End Times have been comming since the beginning and any knowledgable Bible reading Christian of the last two thousand years has known this because our Lord plainly tells us so in His Word. Show me where!!You will not find "End of Time" in the Bible but you will find "Time of the End"(End of the Old Covenant consecrated by the final destruction of the Jewish temple). You will find numerous places stating we are living in a "world without end". Only in the last 200 years have theologians teached this doom theology. before then it was a theology of Christian victory and the current reign of Christ. You do not lend yourselves to the end of the world but you do give yourselves to the judgement of the one we are in. That never stops throughout history. God will judge us, it may be the end of the world for some people but that is because many Christians have bought this theology lock stock and barrel, they have taken themselves out of the world already in anticipation of this doom to come. Irresponsible and unbiblical!

[MississippiMan]

You see the Revelation nuts talking about the "recent rise in earthquakes, storms, etc" when there's been no increase in earthquakes at all

You need to do your research. The past couple of decades have seen monumental increases in earthquakes.

MM

[Fithal the Wise]

Except for verse 14, you did not attempt to give an individual specific response to each question listed in previous post #66.

v4-5 Who were the (many) false Christ's (Messiah's) by 70 AD - the Roman Emporers did not come in His name.

v6 What were the wars (plural) and rumors of wars (plural)

v7 What nations and kingdoms rose against each other. Rome's empire doesn't appear to satisfy this description.

Please document the (plural) famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in several places circa 70 AD

v8-13 Please demonstrate Christians hated by ALL nations for His name's sake, not just Rome

v14 Do you really think the gospel of the kingdom was preached in ALL the world as a witness to ALL the nations

With regard to verse 14 you cite Col 1:6, 23. In Mt 23:14 Jesus was prophesying of ALL nations while Paul was in 63 AD, not prophesying but writing a letter to the Colossians in a context they would understand.

My responses to some of the other things in your post

You said “ (Jesus) continues on from there and discusses the destruction of Jerusalem and warns them to flee (v. 15ff) “ You do not attempt to individually fit each verse with your scenario

24:21 "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.

24:22 "Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

24:23 "Then if anyone says to you, 'Behold, here is the Christ,' or 'There He is,' do not believe him.

24:24 "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.

Please directly addresses the questions and verses cited.

[NATE4"ONE NATION"]

Are you known as a "partial-preterist"?

[NATE4"ONE NATION"]

v4-5 Who were the (many) false Christ's (Messiah's) by 70 AD - the Roman Emporers did not come in His name.
1 John 2:18 - Children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come; therefore we know that it is the last hour. (Josephus also documents this.)

v6 What were the wars (plural) and rumors of wars (plural)
Again Josephus recorded the Jewish wars. That was his mission from the Romans. He was their slave. There were numerous battles that took place over a 3 1/2 year time span before the final destruction in 70 AD. Luke fortold of the sign in this way.20 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it." Josephus recorded this also.

v7 What nations and kingdoms rose against each other. Rome's empire doesn't appear to satisfy this description.
Yes it does satisfy. Rome was battling other nations as well as the Jews. The Jews were also battling others internaly. "Nation" or "nations", the "earth" and the "world" are refered to many times in the Old Testament as being Israel and the Middle Eastern nations. This was "the whole world" for them!

Please document the (plural) famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in several places circa 70 AD
Don't need to. Josephus has it in his Jewish wars writings.

v8-13 Please demonstrate Christians hated by ALL nations for His name's sake, not just Rome .
They were more hated by the Jews and killed by them. Just read Acts.

v14 Do you really think the gospel of the kingdom was preached in ALL the world as a witness to ALL the nations With regard to verse 14 you cite Col 1:6, 23. In Mt 23:14 Jesus was prophesying of ALL nations while Paul was in 63 AD, not prophesying but writing a letter to the Colossians in a context they would understand.
Mark 13:10 - And the gospel must first be preached to all nations. Col 1:6 which has come to you, as indeed in the whole world it is bearing fruit and growing--so among yourselves, from the day you heard and understood the grace of God in truth,. Colossians 1:23 - provided that you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which has been preached to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.
I love how you, in a defense, deny yourself the truth with your own answer. These verses are a perfect example of how this figure of speach was used. By paul and Christ. You can not Biblically prove that the gospel was not preached to "the whole world" (or known world at that time) so you attack valid scripture which defends our position.

24:21 "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.
Absolutely true. That destruction of the jews and the destruction of the temple along with the prior murder of the saints by the Jews and Romans have yet to be marveled. You know what is cool? Josephus describes things like women eating their childern, High priests descecrating the temple, etc and Josphus almost uses Christs words of that being the worst event in Jewish history and there could never be anything in the future to compare to it. It was that terrible.

24:22 "Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. Josephus also records that if it were not for the surrounding of Jerusalem by the Romans and the Christians fleeing just before the destruction of the Jews, that no on would've survived.

24:23 "Then if anyone says to you, 'Behold, here is the Christ,' or 'There He is,' do not believe him.
My 1 John 2:18 post above fufilled this.

[Fithal the Wise]

v4-5 Who were the (many) false Christ's (Messiah's) by 70 AD - the Roman Emporers did not come in His name.

1 John 2:18 - Children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come; therefore we know that it is the last hour. (Josephus also documents this.)

Read further in 1 John 2:22 those anti-christs specifically did NOT the meet the requirement to come in His name

v6 What were the wars (plural) and rumors of wars (plural)

Again Josephus recorded the Jewish wars. That was his mission from the Romans. He was their slave. There were numerous battles that took place over a 3 1/2 year time span before the final destruction in 70 AD. Luke fortold of the sign in this way.20 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it." Josephus recorded this also.

Between 33 AD and the fall of Massada in 74 AD there was ONE Jewish war with several battles. What were the wars (plural) and rumors of wars (plural) and their dates?

v7 What nations and kingdoms rose against each other. Rome's empire doesn't appear to satisfy this description.

Yes it does satisfy. Rome was battling other nations as well as the Jews. The Jews were also battling others internally. "Nation" or "nations", the "earth" and the "world" are refered to many times in the Old Testament as being Israel and the Middle Eastern nations. This was "the whole world" for them!

Please cite which nations what nations and kingdoms rose against each other along with appropriate dates. Also supply the text references where the "earth" and the "world" are referred to many times in the Old Testament as being Israel and the Middle Eastern nations.

Please document the (plural) famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in several places circa 70 AD

Don't need to. Josephus has it in his Jewish wars writings.

Could you help out with some quotes along with dates or at least some citations to speed a library search?

v8-13 Please demonstrate Christians hated by ALL nations for His name's sake, not just Rome .

They were more hated by the Jews and killed by them. Just read Acts.

The ALL nations requirement does not even come close to being satisfied.

v14 Do you really think the gospel of the kingdom was preached in ALL the world as a witness to ALL the nations With regard to verse 14 you cite Col 1:6, 23. In Mt 23:14 Jesus was prophesying of ALL nations while Paul was in 63 AD, not prophesying but writing a letter to the Colossians in a context they would understand.

Mark 13:10 - And the gospel must first be preached to all nations. Col 1:6 which has come to you, as indeed in the whole world it is bearing fruit and growing--so among yourselves, from the day you heard and understood the grace of God in truth,. Colossians 1:23 - provided that you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which has been preached to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.

I love how you, in a defense, deny yourself the truth with your own answer. These verses are a perfect example of how this figure of speach was used. By paul and Christ. You can not Biblically prove that the gospel was not preached to "the whole world" (or known world at that time) so you attack valid scripture which defends our position.

Reiterate: “preached to ALL nations” in Jesus’ specific prophesy is different in context and meaning than Paul’s “which has come to you, as indeed in the whole world”. With regard to Col 1:23 the Greek word “kerusso” translated “preached” is more properly rendered “proclaimed” (see Strong’s Concordance) because the context is “to every creature” as opposed to “all nations” in Jesus prophesy.

24:21 "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.

Absolutely true. That destruction of the jews and the destruction of the temple along with the prior murder of the saints by the Jews and Romans have yet to be marveled. You know what is cool? Josephus describes things like women eating their childern, High priests descecrating the temple, etc and Josphus almost uses Christs words of that being the worst event in Jewish history and there could never be anything in the future to compare to it. It was that terrible.

Isn’t the Great Tribulation a 7 year period as described in Revelation, not what you are promoting.

24:22 "Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. Josephus also records that if it were not for the surrounding of Jerusalem by the Romans and the Christians fleeing just before the destruction of the Jews, that no on would've survived.

On the one hand you attribute the Great Tribulation of 24:21 to all the Roman Empire then in 24:22 ignore this and try to apply “no life would have been saved” only to Jerusalem.

24:23 "Then if anyone says to you, 'Behold, here is the Christ,' or 'There He is,' do not believe him.

My 1 John 2:18 post above fufilled this.

And see my response above

[NATE4"ONE NATION"]

Working on it. My knowledge of Josephus is much more vague than that of the bible. (Plus no handy concordance).

[NATE4"ONE NATION"]

From another post of mine elsewhere.

I think it is more important, on this issue, that we shift our focus. I obviously am not a historical genious. I don't know Josephus or read the writings like I do the word. The underlying proof to a preterist's claims is the ifrrefutable time statements that are made all throughout the New Testament. The fufillment should be of all our interest so we can see how Christ and the Apostles were accurate in their time statements instead of inventing modern day theory to replace our misunderstandings of Prophecy. Test the time statements with context, then search for fufillment! At Hand meant "at hand" when Christ and the disciples spoke!! Matthew 26:18 - He said, "Go into the city to a certain one, and say to him, 'The Teacher says, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at your house with my disciples.'" Matthew 26:45 - Then he came to the disciples and said to them, "Are you still sleeping and taking your rest? Behold, the hour is at hand, and the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners. Matthew 26:46 - Rise, let us be going; see, my betrayer is at hand." John 2:13 - The Passover of the Jews was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. John 19:42 - So because of the Jewish day of Preparation, as the tomb was close at hand, they laid Jesus there. The Apostles used the term also for many things including the "time of the end!" Romans 13:12 - the night is far gone, the day is at hand. Let us then cast off the works of darkness and put on the armor of light; Philippians 4:5 - Let all men know your forbearance. The Lord is at hand. James 5:8 - You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand. 1 Peter 4:7 - The end of all things is at hand; therefore keep sane and sober for your prayers. When they used the word soon it meant to happen quickly or directly after. Mark 13:28 - "From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near. Luke 7:11 - Soon afterward he went to a city called Na'in, and his disciples and a great crowd went with him. Acts 17:15 - Those who conducted Paul brought him as far as Athens; and receiving a command for Silas and Timothy to come to him as soon as possible, they departed. Acts 27:14 - But soon a tempestuous wind, called the northeaster, struck down from the land; Romans 16:20 - then the God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Philippians 2:19 - I hope in the Lord Jesus to send Timothy to you soon, so that I may be cheered by news of you. 2 Timothy 4:9 - Do your best to come to me soon. Revelation 1:1 - The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants what must soon take place; and he made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, In the last instance it meant quickly, none the less refering to a rapid event. In the context of the verses, it easily means which "will take place very quickly". It is a clear interpretation that it was upon them shortly! John declared it to be the last hour! 1 John 2:18 - Children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come; therefore we know that it is the last hour. The lkast days were upon the disciples, not us! Acts 2:17 - 'And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams; (Peters declaration of what was happening at that time). Hebrews 1:2 - but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. Again, with scripture, the futurist must try to perform gymnastics to say that these statements did not mean what they meant. Gods timing was never off, His prophecies were often symbolic. It is the pattern of the whole Bible and denied by the futurist thinker to suit his purpose. As for the matter of where a Christians hope is, Proverbs 13:12 - Hope deferred makes the heart sick, but a desire fulfilled is a tree of life. Read Revelation 21 and 22. Nothing but hopeful for the Christian after the "time of the end".