Posted on 10/15/2001 6:54:40 AM PDT by malakhi
| Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams |
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Latter half of *second* century. JH, in case you didn't know, second century refers to the 100s (not 300s). And Kelly qualifies this by saying "at the latest" -- meaning, it could have happened earlier. Whether it did or not is inconsequential - the point is that the term was used at a very early point, is not treated by Ignatius as a recent invention, and was used in response to many other heretical sects running around claiming to be Christian.
You don't see every denomination of Christianity calling themselves "The Christian Church" do you? Of coures not - we've got Southern Baptists, Methodists, Episcopalians, etc. And all the names are used to make it clear in the minds of people that this particular denomination (whatever it may be) subscribes to a certain set of beliefs. And that's where the term "Catholic" originated. And the word, in its greek form, is katholikos - kata meaning "down, completely" and "holos" meaning "whole." In other words, the name itself is meant to convey the importance of the faith held by all, in direct opposition and contradiction to the heretical sects that had sprung up in the early history of the Church. Hope this helps you.
There are many arguments pro and con concerning Jesus’ siblings. But the issue cannot be settled without examining Psalm 69, a Messianic Psalm. Jesus quotes Psalm 69:4 in John 15:25, "But they have done this in order that the word may be fulfilled that is written in their Law, ‘They hated Me without a cause.’"
He also quotes Psalm 69:9 in John 2:16-17, "and to those who were selling the doves He said, "Take these things away; stop making My Father’s house a house of merchandise." His disciples remembered that it was written, "Zeal for Thy house will consume me."
Clearly, Psalm 69 is a Messianic Psalm since Jesus quoted it in reference to Himself two times. The reason this is important is because of what is written between the verses that Jesus quoted.
To get the whole context, here is Psalm 69:4-9, "Those who hate me without a cause are more than the hairs of my head; Those who would destroy me are powerful, being wrongfully my enemies, What I did not steal, I then have to restore. 5O God, it is Thou who dost know my folly, And my wrongs are not hidden from Thee. 6May those who wait for Thee not be ashamed through me, O Lord God of hosts; May those who seek Thee not be dishonored through me, O God of Israel, 7Because for Thy sake I have borne reproach; Dishonor has covered my face. 8I have become estranged from my brothers, and an alien to my mother’s sons. 9For zeal for Thy house has consumed me, And the reproaches of those who reproach Thee have fallen on me."
This messianic Psalm clearly shows that Jesus has brothers. As Amos 3:7 says, "Surely the Lord God does nothing unless He reveals His secret counsel to His servants the prophets." God’s will has been revealed plainly in the New Testament and prophetically in the Old. Psalm 69 shows us that Jesus had brothers.
Did Mary have other children? The Bible seems to suggest yes. Catholic Tradition says no. Which will you trust?
Of course, the Catholic will simply state that even this phrase "my mother's sons" is in reference not to his siblings, but to cousins and other relatives. This is a necessary thing for the Catholic to say, otherwise, the perpetual virginity of Mary is threatened and since that contradicts Roman Catholic tradition, an interpretation that is consistent with that tradition must be adopted.
The question is, "Was Jesus estranged by His brothers?". Yes, He was. John 7:5 says "For not even His brothers were believing in Him." Furthermore, Psalm 69:8 says bother "my brothers" and "my mother's sons." Are these both to be understood as not referring to His siblings? Hardly. The Catholics are fond of saying that "brothers" must mean "cousins." But, if that is the case, then when we read "an alien to my mother's sons" we can see that the writer is adding a further distinction and narrowing the scope of meaning. In other words, Jesus was alienated by his siblings, His very half-brothers begotten from Mary.
It is sad to see the Roman Catholic church go to such lengths to maintain Mary's virginity, something that is a violation of biblical law to be married and fill the earth
BigMack
Regardless, you still have close to 200 years after the apostles died, even if I accept this man's figures, before the catholic church was formed enough to have taken the name.
Nearly 200 years is almost 5 1/2 generations of people, what was going on all that time before your church started coming on the scene? (^g^)
Very good Mack, I wonder if angelo looks at this scripture as a prophecy of their coming Messiah?
Good question, lets "ping" him and see.
Don't forget to turn your clock back tonight JH
BigMack
Please read what the NASB says in Isa. 8:19,20:
And when they [Israel] say to you, "Consult the mediums and the spiritists who whisper and mutter," should not a people consult their God? Should they consult the dead on behalf of the living? TO THE LAW AND TO THE TESTIMONY! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because they have no dawn.
Here are the same two verses from Douay-Rheims:
19 And when they shall say to you: Seek of pythons, and of diviners, who mutter in their enchantments: should not the people seek of their God, for the living of the dead? 20 To the law rather, and to the testimony. And if they speak not according to this word, they shall not have the morning light.
What is the meaning of these verses? Would someone like to paraphrase?
Amen! Catholics, notice that He is seated. Could He be seated, rather than standing, because His work is complete?
After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was taken up into heaven and He sat at the right hand of God. Mark 16:19
Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died--more than that, who was raised to life--is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. Romans 8:34
The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of His being, sustaining all things by His powerful word. After He had provided purification for sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. Hebrews 1:3
Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when This Priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, He sat down at the right hand of God. Hebrews 10:11, 12
Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. Hebrews 12:2
Maybe?? I wonder.
(Gee, that Heb. 10:11,12 passage sounds a lot like what the Catholics call "Mass.")
Anyone know where I can find a list of catholic dogmas with the DATES that they became dogma?
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Same thing it's been doing since Christ founded it in 33AD - dispensing God's graces through the Sacraments and teaching people how they can be saved by Christ.
Also, would someone give us a catholic definition of "grace"? I've noticed that catholics use that word differently than scripture uses it. Thanks, Hopefulpilgrim
I'll take a crack at it...
And when your people say to you, "Consult the mediums and spiritualists who whisper and mumble," doing all sorts of strange things to make you think they have knowledge, wouldn't it be smarter to consult God? Why would you consult those who are dead for advice for those who are still alive? Why would you consult those who do not know God on behalf of those that do? Any such information must be consistent with the Law, and the testimony of the Law. If these mediums and spiritualists do not speak according to God's Word, it is because they are not of God, and have no light of God's wisdom in them.
Seems pretty straightforward to me...A Christian (or a Jew for that matter) should not be calling Miss Cleo, or John Edwards,or Edgar Cayce, or seeking knowledge of the future, from any other source other than God.
19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?
20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
[Direct such people] to the teaching and to the testimony! If their teachings are not in accord with this word, it is surely because there is no dawn and no morning for them.
Check out Ps. 106:28-29 KJV They joined themselves also unto Baal-peor, and ate the sacrifices of the dead. Thus they provoked him to anger with their inventions (deeds) and the plague brake in upon them.
Sounds to me like God doesn't really want us to have trust in the dead.
Becky
Becky
Well first you have to concede that sacraments are necessary. Then you will understand the need for priests and bishops (Acts 6:6; 14:22; 1 Tim 4:14; 2 Tim 1:6). I have a question for you, do you believe marriage is a sacrament?
I believe part of the reason he won't discuss it with ANYONE is because he has been confronted with Scripture at sometime and has seen stuff that doesn't line up with his knowledge of what catholics believe but doesn't know enough about the catholic faith to defend it, and he doesn't like feeling ignorant of something that he has spent his whole life professing belief in. It is really very sad, but I feel is the condition of alot of people on both sides of the coin. People have been so inundated with the things of the world that they don't think they have time to study the bible each day for themselves, so trust that the priest or preacher in their church WOULD NOT lead them astray.
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