The Neverending Story (The New Christian Chronicles)

Southern Baptists ending talks with Catholic Church ^ | 3/24/01 | AP

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Thread 162
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[trad_anglican]

What exactly is a Liturgy/Liturgical prayer?

Liturgy is a set form of public worship. It is what we do when we gather to worship. Unless your church follows no form or manner of worship, you have a liturgy, too. Some churches follow a more highly structured liturgy than others, but I doubt there are many churches who have no form whatsoever.

Our Sunday liturgy consists of hymns, prayers (some said by all, some said by the priest on behalf of all), bible readings, a sermon, the creed, and of course communion.

[OLD REGGIE]

And why is it so difficult for you to understand that they are milking the situation for all it's worth. They want an issue, not a resolution, otherwise they wouln't have gone public.

Sometimes it is necessary to "go public" to force an issue to see the light of day.

How much do you think could have been resolved "quietly" if the pertinent documents for the critical years were not available "for technical reasons"?

[RobbyS]

My understanding is that the events of the three days must be taken together as a single event, from the celebration of Passover to the fulfillment of Passover.

[ksen]

Aahh, thanks for the info.

-ksen

[american colleen]

Young Reggie,

Did you catch Father Spagnolia at the press conference on NE Cable News just now? Curious for your take on this...

[RobbyS]

Sometimes it is necessary to "go public" to force an issue to see the light of day And when you "force an issue" then it stops being a matter of good will and enters the politcal arena. I wonder, for instance, if it might have something to do with Europe's having turned against Israel.

[eastsider]

Don't forget about the scan[d]al in the Church at Corinth that Paul addressed. Satan has been very active in the Church since the very beginning.

Don't forget the original scandals of Peter's denial, Judas' betrayal, and Jesus' fear in the Garden of Gethsemane.

[OLD REGGIE]

You are hearing what you want to hear in order to keep up your unremitting hammer pounding away. You really need to get full time employment or marry a querulous wife. This would deplete some of that excess energy you evidently possess. Or perhaps you could research more fully and then weigh pros and cons and give us something to consider.

I am retired from employment and marriage to a querulous wife. Nuff said.

"Unremitting hammer pounding"? How do you arrive at this conclusion? Do you just like the sound of the words?
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Thats okay but I am quite sure that the documentation available clearly shows that the Church and Pius XII were held in high esteem by Jews until after his death.

"...But it was not until 1965 that the Vatican eliminated the phrase "perfidious Jews" from the liturgy of a Holy Week service. Since then, relations between the Holy See and the Jewish state have steadily improved. Pope John Paul II has dedicated much of his near 20-year-old papacy to improving relations with Jews, whom he refers to as "older brothers," after centuries of animosity..."
Vatican Apologizes

Really?
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Not that you care.Fah-foo.I bet if you knew how much I enjoy using the expression and how my grandchildren laugh when I say it you would never have given it to me.

I do care. I want you to live in the real world.

If you and your grandchildren enjoy "Fah-foo" I am happy. It gets a point across without resorting to vulgarity.

Peace.

[eastsider]

It's true that the events of the three days are taken together as a whole. It's just that at the time the sacramental words "This is my Body" are spoken, it makes real the body of Christ as it is at that time. That is, if the apostles had celebrated the Eucharist on Holy Saturday, they would have eaten a dead body.

[DouglasKC]

It is not clear here Doug..Do you believe in the divinity of Christ? Do you believe in the Triune God?
We believe in one God, the Father, eternally existing, who is a Spirit, a personal Being of supreme intelligence, knowledge, love, justice, power and authority. He, through Jesus Christ, is the Creator of the heavens and the earth and all that is in them. He is the Source of life and the One for whom human life exists. We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ of Nazareth, who is the Word and has eternally existed. We believe that He is the Messiah, the Christ, the divine Son of the living God, conceived of the Holy Spirit, born in the human flesh of the virgin Mary. We believe that it is by Him that God created all things and that without Him was not anything made that was made. We believe in the Holy Spirit, as the Spirit of God and of Christ Jesus. The Holy Spirit is the power of God and the Spirit of life eternal.

Yes, I believe in the divinity of Christ, but not in the "trinity" concept. Although there is such a thing as the holy spirit, it is not a seperate "personage", like God and Christ, as formulated by the Catholic church and later adopted as doctrine by most protestants.

[Invincibly Ignorant]

Come on Mack. Quit playin' solitare and pick up the pace a little. :-)

[american colleen]

What's the use in the Governments having Laws if the Priests or the Church think they are above them? The RCC put itself above the laws of the civil authorities - the which no NT figure ever did. It is a unique happenstance. Shall we say that Satanists shall not be subject to civil authorities because they have laws themselves and want to self govern them. I don't think so. As I said a long time ago, this issue stems from the fraud of the decretals and a Church wanting to be above the law. It's time that the RCC submitted to the law like everyone else.

Havoc, we are talking about two different things here - I was speaking in my post to RobbyS of ecclesiastical law, not civil law. And I was speaking in the context of Vatican 11 and the way we conduct Mass, etc.

The decretals that you are hung up on have nothing to do with what I was talking about. That decretal issue was settled quite a few years ago (like hundreds) - get over it!

The Catholic Church exists, period. Nothing will change that, not decretals, not pedophile priests, not you, nothing. You are wasting your time attacking something that has nothing to do with the present day. It's like you are living in the past and trying to come up with anything at all to sling at the Church in order to prove she's wrong - why? You disagree with everything the Church stands for, and I respect that. Because you disagree, you do not belong to the Church, and that is how it should be.

[saradippity]

Excuse me for jumping in but RobbyS. provides an excellent link in his post #29876. It links to an article on Cardinal Ratzinger that articulates what I have been taught and believe about the Law,separating the moral law from the ritual law of the Torah. He presents the first as binding to all men everywhere and the second as binding to Jews. I think you would find it very thought provoking and rings of the Truth.

[OLD REGGIE]

The odd thing that Pius XII, who is accused of doing "too little" because he was antisemetic , did more for the Jews than Roosevelt and Churchill, both Judophiles with huge armed forces at their disposal. Pius knew --because there were pro-germans in the Vatican--that not only the Jews but the Church was being held hostage by a man who had sold his soul to the devil--like the man with whom he was at war, Stalin.

Roosevelt was the leader of what Church?
Churchill was the leader of what Church?
The Pope was the leader of what country?

Did these men have a different motive than the Pope? Could you have expected either of them to make the same moral judgments and have the same political objectives as we might expect of the Pope?

Apples and oranges!

[ksen]

Yes, I believe in the divinity of Christ, but not in the "trinity" concept. Although there is such a thing as the holy spirit, it is not a seperate "personage", like God and Christ, as formulated by the Catholic church and later adopted as doctrine by most protestants.

Who or what is the Holy Spirit to you? What do you make of I John 5:7? Galatians speaks about grieving the Holy Spirit, how can we grieve something that is not, to use your word, a "personage"?

-ksen

[NATE4"ONE NATION"]

I would guess because there's one of two places where dead people are: the earth or the sea.

I always viewed the sea as a part of the earth, but I will ponder this point a little more.

What is the reasoning or need for the "sea" to be "no more"?

This should come into play here somewhere.

[ksen]

Excuse me for jumping in but RobbyS. provides an excellent link in his post #29876. It links to an article on Cardinal Ratzinger that articulates what I have been taught and believe about the Law,separating the moral law from the ritual law of the Torah. He presents the first as binding to all men everywhere and the second as binding to Jews. I think you would find it very thought provoking and rings of the Truth.

You are welcome to jump in anytime. Thanks for pointing me to Robby's article. I will look at it and get back to you.

-ksen

[Invincibly Ignorant]

You noticed that too? When it comes to revising history, Big Brother's got nothing on the RCC.

That's true. Our, mini-pope pastor said something yesterday that pertains, he said "Christians are like tea bags, ya never know what flavor they are until they're in hot water. :-)

[NATE4"ONE NATION"]

Just curious, but did Jesus say something about a person who calls someone else a "fool"? Do you think Jesus might have felt the same way about someone who called someone else an "idiot"?

Well, I believe Christ called people some harsh things Himself. Where do we draw the line?

I think clearly it is a pride thing.

Do we have the right to look at someone as an idiot when we are one in our own right?

I believe pride is the key to this warning from Christ.

[OLD REGGIE]

That was a great post and Ratzinger is a great intellect as well as a holy man. I have read almost everything he has written the last 15 years and they are all cogent and express "truth" as simply and clearly as humanly possible. I wish with all my heart that he would be the next Pope but he is light years ahead of,or centuries behind our new post modern,post Christian world and I believe the Cardinals would not be inclined to cast their lot with person who would lead the Church the way it should be led.Mores the pity.Thanks for the post.

I, and a few other nasty NC's, have occassionally claimed that RCC documents are deliberately ambiguous in order to facilitate later "clarification".

A case in point:

The new document, titled Dominus Iesus, or “The Lord Jesus,” and presented by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger in a Sept. 5 news conference, firmly rejects this stance. Ratzinger, the Vatican’s chief doctrinal officer, was joined at the news conference by his top assistant, Archbishop Tarcisio Bertone, and by two priests who worked on the document: Salesian Fr. Angelo Amato, vice rector of the Pontifical Salesian University in Rome, and Msgr. Fernando Ocáriz, vicar general of Opus Dei.

While allowing that followers of other religions can be saved (though only in a mysterious fashion and only through the grace of Christ), Dominus Iesus insists they are nevertheless in a “gravely deficient situation” in comparison to Christians who alone “have the fullness of the means of salvation.” The full name of the document is “Dominus Iesus: On the Unicity and Salvific Universality of Jesus Christ and the Church.”

The document was swiftly branded a “pastoral disaster” by theologians involved in interreligious dialogue. In Asia, some experts predicted it could inflame already tense relations between Catholicism and other religious communities.

Here - National Catholic Reporter - Ratzinger

This was followed up by a letter from JP II:

...The declaration has been criticized by some Christian denominations because it states that "the one Church of Christ subsists in the Catholic Church." The Pope explained, however, that "it does not intend with this to express little regard for the other churches and ecclesial communities." On the contrary, he said, the "Catholic Church suffers … by the fact that true particular churches and ecclesial communities, with precious elements of salvation, have separated from her. ..."

"It is my hope that, after so many mistaken interpretations, this heartfelt declaration will finally be able to achieve its clarifying function, as well as that of openness."

Here - JP II and Ratzinger on "Dominus Iesus"


Now that really clears it up doesn't it?