The Neverending Story (The New Christian Chronicles)

Southern Baptists ending talks with Catholic Church ^ | 3/24/01 | AP

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Thread 162
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[RobbyS]

You've been listening to "progressive"Catholics. They blame R. for their unhappiness, their inability to "reform" the Catholic Church in the United States, because they daren't take on the pope. Ratzinger is unlikley to be pope, because he comes from the wrong country.

[OLD REGGIE]

I can prove a Church with my beliefs at least from the secon century. They have shown creeds from the 12th or 13th Century. That's a long time difference. There is a greay area where history become archaeology, but the 2nd and 3rd century documents we have attest to my Church, including the position of the Bishp of Rome.

The documents are on file in the Vatican Archives. Do you think you could use your influence to get some good Baptist in to review these documents? Hopefully, this venture would be more successful than the aborted access and review of Vatican Archives accorded to the Jews 1999-2000.

[RobbyS]

The laity do not have a voice and are essentially powerless to affect change. This is a naive statement. It is like saying," American democracy is a farce!" How much power does the "laity" have in our courts? All we can do is to withhold our money and use it to settle disputes on our own. How much power do they have in school districts? Shell out in higher taxes if the "powers" that be decide to build a gold plated football stadium? Our whole governmental is based on the granting of privileges to certain classes: doctors, lawyers, indian chiefs. At least you can walk away from your church.

[Elsie]

So are you saying that I am a self-righteous gossip?

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sigh.......

No! (But you CAN'T read!)

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(Not picking on you, yours is just the last reply in this HUMUNGOUS thread!)

[Elsie]

..........their inability to "reform" the Catholic Church.........

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Didn't Luther also have this problem?

[RobbyS]

And why should Jews have the right to the unlimited access to the Vaitcan archives? Dare they ask for the same rights to those of the United States government? They might say: "WE DEMAND to know what President Roosevelt knew about the Holocaust in 1943 and why he didn't do more to short-circuit it!" One may resumbaly presume that FDR knew what was going on, but you won't find that he said anything about it publicly. Read the NYT for the period 1942-45.Effectively Silent. You don't think THEY knew?

[RobbyS]

Was Luther an Arian? Want to see what they would like the Church to become? Look at what is happening in the Episcopal Church.

[Elsie]

So what do you think?

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I think you have matured and relied on God for guidance. This is as much as any of us can ask.

I left out the log - splinter parable: it's over used and most would miss the implication that if you DO get the log OUT, then you CAN help your brother/sister with their splinter.

Hopefully, we tell OUR tale of "where we've been" to perhaps keep others from falling for Satan's trick in that same area.

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(I hope you're having a wonderful day, mine has been fine so far.)

[OLD REGGIE]

You've been listening to "progressive"Catholics. They blame R. for their unhappiness, their inability to "reform" the Catholic Church in the United States, because they daren't take on the pope. Ratzinger is unlikley to be pope, because he comes from the wrong country.

I have been "listening" to no one. It was just my feeble attempt to equal the stupid statement of my friend.

There may be no such a thing as a "wrong" country any more. JP II has had enough time to load the College of Cardinals with "his" people.

[NATE4"ONE NATION"]

"and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

And like many, most conveniently you ignore that this reference to Daniel in Daniel 12 is meant and correctly translated "end of the age."

The "end of the age" (Daniel 12) is the only "END" the Bible declares.
The Old Covenant age ended in the 1st Century.

Do some language and concordance study before you base a theory on one word like "world."

[RobbyS]

When I was young, I was what one call a "Commonweal" Catholic. Needless to say, they have "progressed" far beyond me now.

[RobbyS]

If the country is Germany or Austria, it is. The "progressives" hope to slip in a liberal Italian Jebbie, but I don't think that is llikely to happen. More likely an African. You may have noticed that the pope has greatly diminshed the influence of the "First World" folk.

[OLD REGGIE]

And why should Jews have the right to the unlimited access to the Vaitcan archives? Dare they ask for the same rights to those of the United States government? They might say: "WE DEMAND to know what President Roosevelt knew about the Holocaust in 1943 and why he didn't do more to short-circuit it!" One may resumbaly presume that FDR knew what was going on, but you won't find that he said anything about it publicly. Read the NYT for the period 1942-45.Effectively Silent. You don't think THEY knew?

Does a cow kuka like a kitty" Why is it so difficult for you to stay on topic? The Vatican offered access to the relevant archives and agreed to a cooperative effort of research to prove how active the "Church" was during the period of the Holocaust. When the shit hit the fan only archives up to 1923 were available. "Technical" reasons. Yah! Sure!

[NATE4"ONE NATION"]

Okay, so we are in the kingdom now. When does the "new heaven and new earth" with "no more sea" happen? (Rev 21:1)

The New Jerusalem is the church and it dwells in the New Heavens and New Earth (New Covenant).
There would be no church without a New Covenant to dwell in.

If you reference the "sea" as literal then you will never get the symbolic meaning. I suggest going to Revelation 20 to help you with the "sea" in it's relation to hades. Why did the "sea" give up the dead?
The sea was the holding place for the righteous, hades for the wicked, until judgement. There is no more death or holding place for the righteous or wicked, for we are judged on our position in the New Covenant. Salvation determines our place, no more "judgment seat" needed.
We pass from life to life!!

John 5:24 - Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, has eternal life; he does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.


It is not meaning the "literal" sea (oceans, etc)

Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead in them, and all were judged by what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire; 15 and if any one's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Remember, Christ's return brings the resurrection and death of death. It is when those sleeping finally awake to life (John 14:3).
And it already took place.

[RobbyS]

And why is it so difficult for you to understand that they are milking the situation for all it's worth. They want an issue, not a resolution, otherwise they wouln't have gone public.

[DouglasKC]

If you reference the "sea" as literal then you will never get the symbolic meaning. I suggest going to Revelation 20 to help you with the "sea" in it's relation to hades.

The same word translated "sea" is also used in other places in Revelation and obviously is referring to a physical sea...reference 7:3 among many others. Are all usages of the word "sea" symbolic in Revelation?

Why did the "sea" give up the dead?

I would guess because there's one of two places where dead people are: the earth or the sea.

The sea was the holding place for the righteous, hades for the wicked, until judgement.

Is this interpetation for the sea used anywhere else in the bible?

[american colleen]

"He'd be great for those who want the RCC to go backwards about 500 years."

You are right, although I don't know about 500 years. I do know that he (Ratzinger) is a stickler for Church law and I think we need someone here in the US to straighten out some of the abuses that have taken place since Vatican 11. What's the use of having a church with rules and laws if no one listens to them?

I'm over my head with this one as I don't know a ton about Ratzinger - someone like Soothing Dave probably does.

[american colleen]

My comments above apply. The laity really do not have a voice. The only voice available to them is $'s and they seem to be conditioned to keep on giving.

If we stop giving to the weekly collection, it hurts via the upkeep of our individual parish. What we can stop is giving to the Cardinal's appeal which should be kicking off fairly soon - and I think that will be WAY down this year. I don't think we are conditioned, btw, at least I don't feel that way at all and I never have felt that way.

I also don't believe we have no voice at all in this matter. We may have less of a voice then other denominations, but telephone calls, editorials and e-mail all have the ability to keep the pressure up - if that is what we want to do - I think a lot of us (Catholics here in Boston) have to decide if we want Law to stay or go. Last I heard Catholic public opinion is about 50 - 50 on this issue. I think he should go, personally, and this is why:

Luke

Chapter 17

He said to his disciples, "Things that cause sin will inevitably occur, but woe to the person through whom they occur. It would be better for him if a millstone were put around his neck and he be thrown into the sea than for him to cause one of these little ones to sin.