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Posted on 08/26/2005 10:14:46 PM PDT by snippy_about_it
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 are acknowledged, affirmed and commemorated.
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  Towed guns are, as the name implies, artillery pieces that must be towed by another vehicle. They are more powerful than mortars, and they have greater range. The M198 155mm howitzer, for example, can hurl a wide variety of 155mm projectiles as far as 18 km (33 km with rocket assist). It can also be used for multiple simultaneous strikes, and it can fire high explosive shells, anti-personnel or anti-armour mine-laying systems, tactical nuclear warheads, chemical weapons, smoke projectiles, communications jamming devices, remote sensors, illuminating projectiles, and even special guided projectiles. It is more than capable of destroying infantry, buildings, or armoured vehicles, so it is used to hit "deep targets" well behind the front lines. This can include armoured columns moving to the front, enemy artillery, etc. Towed guns can even be small enough to be highly portable. For example, the British Army has a 105mm light gun which is air portable, yet has a maximum range of more than 17 km. The example pictured at right is equipped with a Marconi LINAPS automatic aiming system. However, the towed gun's primary weakness is its lack of mobility. Since a towed gun can be targeted from the flight path of its projectile, it is an obvious target for enemy counter-attack. It also has difficulty keeping up with rapidly moving mobile forces, since the number of available tractors is generally smaller than the number of guns. Therefore, the towed gun has been largely supplanted by the self-propelled gun in modern armies. However, the towed gun is much less expensive than the self-propelled gun, and in today's complex global environment, the enemy need not be a large, well-armed national military force. It could be anything from terrorists to criminal organizations, and in many cases, these enemies are poorly equipped, lacking effective field artillery or projectile tracking systems. Against such an enemy, a towed artillery piece can be a lethal and virtually untouchable implement of war.  Mobile warfare is hampered by immobile artillery support, so a full-scale conventional warfare scenario requires self-propelled artillery pieces such as the American M110A1. This is a self-propelled 203mm howitzer. It has been in service for decades, and can be found in the armies of numerous countries around the world. It can fire an 8-inch diameter, 92.5 kg high explosive projectile to a maximum range of 21.3 km, and a rocket-assisted projectile to a maximum range of 29.1 km. It can also fire a variety of other projectiles if necessary, like the towed M198 mentioned above, but unlike the M198, it can travel at nearly 60 km/h under its own power. It also has a shovel-like attachment which digs into the ground to stabilize the platform against the prodigious force of recoil from its massive gun. It should be noted that this gun provides no protection whatsoever for its crew, and that this sort of self-propelled gun is actually the exception rather than the rule. Most self-propelled guns have an enclosed crew cab for protection as well as greater ammo storage. The doctrine of self-propelled gun deployment calls for large numbers of independent units to situate themselves around the countryside and move with the infantry and armour units. When a target is identified by the spotters, all of these artillery pieces will simultaneously open fire and shower it with shells, before pulling up stakes and changing positions in order to avoid the inevitable enemy artillery counter-attack (the slang term is "shoot and scoot". In this way, mobile artillery units achieve the dangerous combination of mobility, dispersion, and firepower concentration. sym·po·sium : a social gathering at which there is free interchange of ideas So now let's get on with the discussion. Special thanks to USMCBOMBGUY for today's subject. His question was "Towed or self propelled artillery? Which will be more successful in the future?" I took the liberty of narrowing the subject down to guns rather than all artillery. Pull up a chair or grab a spot on the floor around the virtual Foxhole Cabin and let's chat.      |
Educational sources:
www.global-defence.com/2000/pages/artil.html
www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tech/Ground/Artillery.html
Night Shift Bump for the Saturday Symposium and in before whatever
Regards
alfa6 ;>}
I'm wondering why SP guns don't also tow a Howie of the same calibre. The artillery could pound a few shots from each, saddle up and scoot, and use the incoming enemy fire on their former position to range for their next salvo.
They could also target two separate positions from the same firing point simultaneously.
I'm just a civvie, and I'm sure it's been discussed at one time or another, but I've never seen or heard any discussion/articles about the idea.
Then again, it could be that it was tried at one point, and went the same way as jacketless ammo for small arms.
Two problems with your scenario DonW...
1} Where is the crew gonna ride for the towed piece?
2} Where is the ammo gonna ride.
Let's ask Darksheare since IIRC he was a redleg.
Regards
alfa6 ;>}
Perhaps a "B" train setup? Or a large enough crew compartment in the slightly longer (for ammo stores) SP gun?
Just asking. As I said earlier, I'm just curious. A bit ignorant re: artillery requirements too.
The reason everybody is worried about the survivability of towed artillery of all sizes is computer controlled counter battery fire radar systems. That is, exotic radars that can track artillery shells and direct fire on the piece shooting.
An example, current state of the art:
AN/TPQ-47 Firefinder Block II Radar
The AN/TPQ-47 (Formerly AN/TPQ-37 P3I Block II) is the next generation Firefinder, which will replace the AN/TPQ-37 antenna transceiver group (ATG) utilizing advanced technology that will provide rapid and increased target location, improved accuracy, and target classification at greater ranges. This is a new capability to provide the warfighter continuous and responsive counterbattery target acquisition for all types and phases of military operations. This system will compliment the next generation of longer range weapons and munitions being developed for fire support, and revolutionize the way the Army conducts the weapon locating mission.
The AN/TPQ-47 will provide a significant capability to the Army by doubling the current artillery detection range of the AN/TPQ-37. It also adds a new mission area for Firefinder to detect Tactical Ballistic Missiles out to 300 kilometers in range. Proposed requirements for the AN/TPQ-47 include increased range and accuracy for both conventional artillery (60 km) and tactical ballistic missiles (250+ km) locations, enhanced survivability against DF/ARM threat, drive on/off C-130 and larger aircraft, on-board pos-nav system, remote operational capability, and ability to process stored targets on the move. The improvements are especially critical in the role the AN/TPQ-47 can play in deep operations and the active, passive defense attack operations against tactical ballistic missiles. Other capabilities include target classification, reliable target identification, automated emplacement and greatly reduced operating and sustainment costs.
The AN/TPQ-47 configuration includes the Operation Central, the Antenna Transceiver Group, the Prime Power Group, and the Portable Operations Suite. The upgrade will replace the Antenna Transceiver Group to double the current range performance for detecting incoming fire from mortar, artillery, and rockets, and provide improved targeting capability for counterbattery fire. The AN/TPQ-47 will detect tactical ballistic missiles at ranges out to 300 kilometers. The upgrade integrates with the Advanced Field Artillery Tactical Data System (AFATDS) software to ensure rapid counterfire.
The AN/TPQ-47 is designed to deliver superior transportability and mobility. It can be transported in a single C-130 sortie or by CH-47 helicopter lift. Rapid emplacement and displacement can be accomplished by a six-person crew.
The AN/TPQ-47 Firefinder's modular field-repairable design minimizes down time to maintain high system operational availability. An auto calibration algorithm allows the antenna to be recalibrated in the field.
The Q-47 provides a substantial increase in range and accuracy over the Q-37. Like the Q-37, the Q-47 is optimized for rockets and cannons. The probability of locating an enemy system in normal mode is .85 or higher throughout the entire range fan for a specific target category. The Q-47 can locate light and heavy mortars at ranges out to 18km and heavy mortars out to 30km with the same probability of location. It locates artillery and light rockets out to 60km and heavy rockets out to 100km. General planning ranges are 18km for mortars, 60km for artillery and light rockets and 100km for heavy rockets.
This new system differs from the AN/TPQ 37 by being more easily transported (fits in a C-130) and being more resistant to direction finding and anti-radiation missiles. What this means is that this gadget shoots a huge and powerful radar beam into the sky, and reasonably simple machinery can figure out where it is from it's radar emission and Viet Nam era missile technology can then take it out.
Pretty soon enough the sky from five feet up will be full of awfully smart pilotless aircraft. Ten years, maybe. You stick out, you dead.
Personally I think that counter artillery radar systems will not be useful for very long.
Radio, radar, and even electrical generators and vehicle electrics can be readily localized these days. From orbit you can pick up a wrist watch chip. (Or a submarine hundreds of feet down.) A cell phone is like a searchlight at night used to be.
Future war, my lifetime and yours, will be like World War Two submarines trying to stay alive - run silent, run deep. Hide. Every sensor will either be passive or protected like heck.
The Indians are buying AN/TPQ-37 sets from us. Times keep changing.
Shuttle has to go. Sooner the better. No time to waste on such junk. There are things that need doing.
Good morning Snippy, Sam and eveyrone at the Foxhole.
Good Texas Saturday mornin' to you and all. A big thanks to our military and to our country.
We are off to Crawford in a couple of hours to join in with the vast majority of Americans who support this great nation and our President.
On This Day In History
Birthdates which occurred on August 27:
0551 BC Confucius Chinese philosopher
1770 Georg Wilhelm F Hegel German philosopher/inventor (dialectic) (Hegel to Marx to Hitler,Stalin)
1809 Hannibal Hamlin (R) 15th VP (1861-65)
1824 Hiram Gregory Berry Major General (Union volunteers), died in 1863
1826 Frank Stillman Nickerson Brig General (Union volunteers)
1832 James Alexander Walker Brig General (Confederate Army), died in 1901
1839 Emory Upton Bvt Major General (Union Army), died in 1881
1865 Charles Gates Dawes (R) 30th VP (1925-29, Nobel 1925)
1882 Samuel Goldwyn pioneer film maker/producer (MGM)
1886 Eric Coates Hucknall, Nottinghamshire, England, composer
1877 Charles Stewart Rolls British auto manufacturer (Rolls-Royce Ltd)
1899 C.S. Forester, England, historical novelist, created Horatio Hornblower
1890 Man Ray US artist/photographer/movie (dada)
1908 Lyndon B Johnson (D) 36th Pres (1963-1969)
1908 Martha Raye [Margaret Reed], Butte Mont, actress / Viet-Nam vet (Martha Raye Show)
1910 Mother Teresa [Agnes Gonxha Bojaxhiu], Yugoslavia (Nobel 1979)
1915 Walter W Heller economist (Old Myths & New Realities)
1929 Elizabeta Bagrintseve USSR, discus thrower (Olympic-silver-1952)
1929 Ira Levin author (Rosemary's Baby, Boys From Brazil)
1932 Antonia Fraser biographer (Mary Queen of Scots)
1935 Frank Yablans NYC, writer (North Dallas Forty)
1937 Tommy Sands singer/actor (Teenage Rock, Dream With Me)
1941 Yuri V Malyshev cosmonaut (Soyuz T-2, T-11)
1942 Daryl Dragon Pasadena Calif, keyboardist (Capt & Tennille)
1943 Bob Kerrey (ex-Sen-D Nebraska)
1943 Susan "Tuesday" Weld NYC, actress (Dobie Gillis, Wild in Country)
1949 Barbara Bach [Goldbach], Queens NY, actress (Spy Who Loved Me)
1950 Charles Fleischer Wash DC, comedian (Roger Rabbit)
1952 Pee-wee Herman aka Paul Reubens, actor / movie lover (Pee-wee's Big Adventure)
1961 "Downtown" Julie Brown TV host (Club MTV, Inside Edition)
We're still left with the problem of hooking up the towed pieces before moving to a different location.
The major advantage to towed artillery is it's cheap..in comparison the SPs.
I like to be self-propelled. I hate bumming rides from other folks.
The need for "bad weather" to stimulate growth can be seen in nature. Scientists say that the seeds of some desert bushes must be damaged by a storm before they will germinate. They are covered with hard shells that keep out water. This allows them to lie dormant on the sand for several seasons until conditions are right for growth. When heavy rains finally come, the little seeds are carried away in a flash flood. They are banged against sand, gravel, and rocks as they rush down the slopes. Eventually they settle in a depression where the soil has become damp to a depth of several feet. Only then do they begin to grow, for moisture is absorbed through the nicks and scratches they picked up on their downhill plunge. Similarly, difficulties may be needed to wake up a sleeping saint. This may hurt for a while, but if we yield to the Lord we will find that life's bruises can mark the beginning of spiritual advances. We may prefer to remain "seeds," but He wants us to become "fruitful trees." —Mart De Haan
Or should pain attend me on my path below, Grant that I may never fail Thy hand to see, Grant that I may ever cast my care on Thee. —Montgomery There are no gains without pains.
Knowing God Through Proverbs |
A couple comments on the article--the M110 8" howitzer was taken out of service over 10 years ago; and the 17 km range ascribed to the Brit 105mm has been surpassed by the 19km (rocket assisted projectile)range for the M119 105mm towed howitzer in service with the airborne, air assault, and light infantry forces of the U.S. Army.
Mobility is brought up in the debate, but mobility is a relative concept. 105mm towed Arty is lighter and can be air-lifted via C130 cargo planes and slingloaded via CH47 or US60 helicopters or airdropped using parachutes. It can therefore go long distances much quicker than SP howitzers. By virtue of its air-transportability, it can also be emplaced on mountain-tops or in jungle clearings or across rivers or other terrain where SP arty cannot go. On the ground it is towed by a HMMWV and the smaller size round makes it easier to keep supplied.
The Army wants to keep those advantages, but gain the range and lethality associated with 155mm howitzers. Currently they are trying to develop a 155mm towed howitzer using light weight materials that can be lifted using a UH-60 and towed by a HMMWV, but still has the 155mm reach and family of ammunition.
SP Arty in the U.S. Army is all 155mm now. The upcoming doctrine is to capitalize on GPS technology and on-board fire direction computing to enable dispersed, individual howitzers to achieve first round hits on specific targets. Quite a change from the days of 6 gun batteries and battalion volleys firing salvos at the same target under the idea that if enough rounds are fired, somebody will hit the target! The arty improvements in accuracy and round lethality has resulted in significantly less artillery built into the design of future Army formations.
Bottom line: we still need a mixture of both.
Bittygirl is running around the house singing the praises of da-du, da-du (daddy). I keep waiting for her to say da-du, da-du, shazbot.
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Many Christians have to be lovingly roughed up before they will grow up. Although the heavenly Father never allows His children to suffer needlessly, sometimes He lets them experience hard knocks so they'll become mature believers.