The FReeper Foxhole Presents the Saturday Symposium - Vicksburg or Gettysburg? - July 23rd, 2005

see educational sources

[snippy_about_it]

Lord,

Keep our Troops forever in Your care

Give them victory over the enemy...

Grant them a safe and swift return...

Bless those who mourn the lost.
.

FReepers from the Foxhole join in prayer
for all those serving their country at this time.


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Vicksburg or Gettysburg?



sym·po·sium : a social gathering at which there is free interchange of ideas

So now let's get on with the discussion. Pull up a chair or grab a spot on the floor around the virtual Foxhole Cabin and let's chat. Here is today's question.

Gettysburg was considered the turning point in the War Between the States. Vicksburg fell a few days earlier. Which do you believe was more important? Background:

The Battle of Vicksburg

From mid-Oct. 1862, Maj. Gen. Ulysses S. Grant made several attempts to take Vicksburg. Following failures in the first attempts, the Battle of Chickasaw Bluffs, the Yazoo Pass Expedition, and Steele's Bayou Expedition, in the spring of 1863 he prepared to cross his troops from the west bank of the Mississippi River to a point south of Vicksburg and drive against the city from the south and east. Commanding Confederate batteries at Port Hudson, La., farther south prevented the transportation of waterborne supply and any communication from Union forces in Baton Rouge and New Orleans. Naval support for his campaign would have to come from Rear Adm. David D. Porter's fleet north of Vicksburg. Running past the powerful Vicksburg batteries, Porter's vessels, once south of the city, could ferry Federals to the east bank. There infantry would face 2 Confederate forces, one under Lt. Gen. John C. Pemberton at Vicksburg and another around Jackson, Miss., soon to be commanded by Gen. Joseph E. Johnston.

In Jan. 1863 Grant organized his force into the XI Corps under Maj. Gen. John A. McClernand, the XV Corps under Maj. Gen. William T. Sherman, the XVI Corps under Maj. Gen. Stephen A. Hurlbut, and the XVII Corps under Maj. Gen. James B. McPherson. Simultaneous with Grant's Vicksburg offensive, Maj. Gen. Nathaniel P. Banks began his maneuvering along the Red River in Louisiana. Hurlbut's corps was subsequently transferred to New Orleans. With his 3 remaining corps, Grant began operations late in March. On the 29th and 30th McClernand's and McPherson's men, at Milliken's Bend and Lake Providence, northwest of Vicksburg, began working their way south, building a military road to New Carthage, La., preparatory to a move south to Hard Times, La., a village opposite Bruinsburg, Miss.

On the night of 16 Apr., at Grant's request, Porter took 12 vessels south past the Vicksburg batteries, losing 1 to Confederate fire. On 17 Apr. Grierson's Raid began. Led by Brig. Gen. Benjamin H. Grierson, Federal cavalry left La Grange, Tenn., for 16 days riding through central Mississippi to Baton Rouge, La., pulling away large units from Vicksburg's defense to pursue them. Porter, encouraged by light losses on his first try, ran a large supply flotilla past the Vicksburg batteries the night of 22 Apr. Sherman's troops, many at work on a canal project at Duckport, abandoned this work, joined in a last action along the Yazoo River, northeast of Vicksburg, and 29-30 Apr. made a demonstration against Confederate works at Haynes' Bluff and Drumgould's Bluffs, diverting more of Pemberton's force. Also on 29 Apr., as McClernand's and McPherson's troops gathered near Hard Times, Porter's fleet assailed Confederate batteries at Grand Gulf, 33 mi. southwest of Vicksburg, testing the Grand Gulf area as a landing site for Union troops. Though Porter found the guns there too strong, he had succeeded in further diverting Pemberton in Vicksburg.

Grant had originally determined that Rodney, Miss., would be the starting point of his invasion, but took the advice of a local slave and picked Bruinsburg instead. McClernand's and McPherson's corps were ferried east across the Mississippi from Hard Times 30 Apr. That day Grant sent word north for Sherman to follow McPherson's route south and join him.

On I May the Federal invasion force engaged the Confederates in the Battle of Port Gibson. Pemberton had just over 40,000 men assigned to the Vicksburg region. Since they were scattered throughout the area, chasing Grierson and wary of Sherman, few of them could be brought to bear against Grant on short notice. Defeated at Port Gibson, Pemberton's troops moved north. Grant, to Pemberton's confusion, pushed northeast. Sherman's corps joined him 8 May, and 12 May the engagement at Raymond was fought. Johnston took personal command of Confederates at Jackson, 15 mi northeast of Raymond, 13 May. On 14 May Federals quickly won an engagement at Jackson, cut off Johnston from Pemberton, and ensured the latter's isolation for the rest of the campaign. In 2 weeks Grant's force had come well over 130 mi. northeast from their Bruinsburg landing site.

Ordering Sherman to destroy Jackson's heavy industry and rail facilities, Grant turned west, roughly following the Southern Mississippi Railroad to Bolton, and 16 May fought the climactic combat of his field campaign, the Battle Of Champion's Hill. With the largest force he had yet gathered to oppose Grant, Pemberton nevertheless took a beating there and pulled his army into the defenses of Vicksburg. In a delaying battle at Big Black River Bridge, 17 May, Confederates crossed the Big Black, destroying their river crossings behind them. Undeterred, Federals threw up their own bridges and continued pursuit the next day.

Approaching from the east and northeast, McClernand's, McPherson's, and Sherman's corps neared the Vicksburg defenses 1 8 May, Sherman's veering north to take the hills overlooking the Yazoo River. Possession of these heights assured Grant's reinforcement and supply from the North. The next day Federals made the failed first assault on Vicksburg. The second assault, 22 May, was a disaster for Union forces, showed the strength of the miles of Confederate works arching east around the city, and convinced Grant that Pemberton could only be defeated in a protracted siege.

The siege of Vicksburg began with the repulse of the 22 May assault and lasted until 4 July 1 863. As the siege progressed, Pemberton's 20,000-man garrison was reduced by disease and starvation, and the city's residents were forced to seek the refuge of caves and bombproofs in the surrounding hillsides, Hunger and daily bombardments by Grant's forces and Porter's gunboats compelled Pemberton to ask for surrender terms 3 July. Grant offered none, but on the garrison's capitulation immediately paroled the bulk of the force. Many of these same men would later oppose him at Chattanooga.

Pemberton's surrender ended the Vicksburg Campaign. But during the siege, to the east Johnston had raised a 31,000 man force in the Jackson area. On 4 July, as Confederates were being paroled, Sherman moved his force to oppose this new threat. Sherman's march would result in the Siege of Jackson. Source: "Historical Times Encyclopedia of the Civil War" edited by Patricia L. Faust

---

The Gettysburg Campaign

JUNE 1863

Following his victory at Chancellorsville in May, 1863, General Lee received approval from his government to invade the north. Lee hoped an invasion would fuel the northern peace movement and, at least, disrupt the Union war effort. After the death of Stonewall Jackson, Lee's Army of Northern Virginia, 75,000-strong, had been reorganized into three army corps under Longstreet, Ewell, and A.P. Hill, with a cavalry division under J.E.B. Stuart. On June 3, advance troops of the Confederate army left their camps near Fredericksburg and marched west toward the Shenandoah Valley.

The 95,000-strong Federal Army of the Potomac, under General Hooker, was initially uncertain of Lee's intentions. On June 9, Hooker ordered cavalry general Alfred Pleasonton to conduct a reconnaissance with 11,000 men across the Rappahannock River toward Brandy Station. Pleasonton ran into Stuart's cavalry, and the largest cavalry battle of the war ensued. The result was a standoff, but the Federals were now alerted to the Confederate army's movements.

By June 13, elements of Ewell's corps appeared before Winchester. On the same day, Hooker with-drew the Army of the Potomac from the Rappahannock and ordered it north. On June 14-15, Ewell attacked the 9,000-strong Federal garrison at Winchester and defeated it, inflicting heavy losses and capturing much valuable war material.

After Winchester, Lee's army moved unchecked into the Cumberland Valley of Pennsylvania. On June 25, Lee agreed to Stuart's plan to take three brigades of cavalry across the Potomac cast of the Blue Ridge Mountains, and cut across the rear of the Federal army. Stuart's march encountered frequent delays and detours and an increasingly aggressive Federal cavalry, and was unable to rejoin Lee until July 2.

By June 28, Longstreet and Hill's corps were at Chambersburg. Divisions of Ewell's corps had crossed the mountains to York and Carlisle, and were preparing to move against Harrisburg. However, Lee learned on this day that the Federal army was at Frederick, and that Hooker had been replaced by General Meade. Lee decided to bring his entire army east of the mountains and offer battle. At the same time, Meade moved his army north. By June 30, both armies were converging upon Gettysburg and the battle, which would be the turning point of the war, was set to commence.

JULY 1 1863

After the discovery on June 30 that Gettysburg was occupied by Brigadier General John Buford's division of Federal cavalry, the Confederates on July 1 sent the divisions of Major General Henry Heth and Major General William Pender of Hill's Corps, down the Chambersburg Road to drive Buford away and occupy Gettysburg.

The battle began at 5.30 a.m., when shots were exchanged over Marsh Creek. In the face of Buford's resistance, Heth pushed on cautiously until he reached a point about two miles west of Gettysburg. Here he deployed two brigades in line, and pressed ahead; it was nearly 10 a.m. Federal General John F. Reynolds, commanding I Corps, arrived on the field at this point, and determined to engage Herb. He ordered I Corps and Major General Oliver 0. Howard's XI Corps to march to Gettysburg.

Soon after 10.30 a.m., I Corps arrived and engaged Heth along McPherson's Ridge. By 11.30 a.m., Heth had been defeated and forced to withdraw to Herr Ridge. Early in the action, Reynolds was killed, and field command devolved upon Howard. A lull now settled over the field as both sides brought up reinforcements. The Federal I Corps deployed to defend the western approaches to Gettysburg, while XI Corps formed up north of the town. Buford's cavalry covered the flanks. Howard left one division in reserve on Cemetery Hill. His strategy was simple: delay the Confederates long enough to enable the rest of the Federal army to concentrate. Lee arrived on the field after noon. He had initially hoped to avoid a general engagement since the strength of the enemy was unknown, and the terrain in the Gettysburg area unfamiliar. But, soon after noon, Rodes's division of Ewell's Corps arrived on Oak Hill and attacked the right of I Corps. At 2 p.m. Heth's division joined the attack on I Corps. At 3 p.m., the battle spread north of the town when Jubal Early's division of Ewell's Corps attacked down the Harrisburg Road and crushed the flank of XI Corps. At about the same time, west of Gettysburg, Pender's division relieved Heth and assaulted I Corps' position along Seminary Ridge. By 4 p.m., both Federal corps were in retreat through Gettysburg to Cemetery Hill. Federal losses numbered slightly over 9,000, including some 3,000 captured, compared with Confederate losses of about 6,500.

The day's action had resulted in a Confederate victory, but Federal forces held onto the high ground south of Gettysburg, where their position was soon strengthened by reinforcements.

JULY 2 1863

The success of his army in the fighting on July 1 encouraged Lee to renew the battle on July 2. An early morning reconnaissance of the Federal left revealed that their line did not extend as far south as Little Round Top. Lee directed Longstreet to take two divisions of I Corps and march south until they reached the flank of the Federal forces. They would attack from this point, supported by a division of A.P. Hill's corps - a total force of nearly 20,000 men. While Longstreet carried out the main offensive, Ewell was ordered to conduct a demonstration against the Federal right. However, he was given discretion to mount a full-scale attack should the opportunity present itself.

The Federal army was well prepared for Lee's offensive. Six of its seven corps had arrived on the battlefield, and VI Corps was making a thirty-six-mile forced march to reach it. Meade had deployed his army in a fish-hook-shaped formation, with the right on Culp's Hill and Cemetery Hill, the center along Cemetery Ridge, and the left on Little Round Top. The left of the Federal line was held by Major General Daniel Sickles's III Corps. Sickles was dissatisfied with his assigned position and in the early afternoon, without orders, he advanced his line nearly half a mile west in order to take advantage of the high open ground around a nearby peach orchard.

Soon after Sickles took up this new position, Longstreet attacked. Third Corps was hard pressed and Meade sent V Corps and part of 11 Corps to reinforce Sickles in the Peach Orchard. But, after furious fighting, Longstreet's forces broke through, causing Sickles's entire line to collapse. The Confederates pursued to the base of Little Round Top, but Federal reinforcements, including elements of VI Corps, checked their advance. Farther north, elements of a division of the Confederate III Corps advanced to the slopes of Cemetery Ridge before they too were forced to retire.

On the Federal right, Ewell did not attack until evening, after Longstreet's onslaught had subsided. The effort to storm Cemetery Hill was ultimately unsuccessful. Ewell's attacks were also repulsed at Culp's Hill, although a foothold was gained near the base of the hill.

The second day's fighting had cost each army some 9,000 casualties. Lee's forces had again gained ground, but had failed to dislodge the Federal army from its strong position.

JULY 3 1863

Lee's confidence was unshaken by the events of July 2. That night, he ordered Longstreet, who had been reinforced by Major General George Pickett's division, to renew his assault on the Federal left. Simultaneously, Ewell, who had also been reinforced, was to storm Culp's Hill. Stuart's cavalry, which had rejoined the army late that day, was ordered to march well east of Gettysburg, and attempt to penetrate to the Federal rear where they might disrupt communications and distract Meade.

Meanwhile, Meade had determined to hold his position and await Lee's attack. However, at Culp's Hill he authorized XII Corps to drive Ewell's forces out of the captured Federal trenches at daylight. The Federal effort opened with a concentrated artillery bombardment which precipitated a tremendous musketry battle.

With Ewell already engaged, Lee rode to Longstreet's headquarters to observe his preparations for the attack on the Federal left. Longstreet misunderstood his orders and was planning instead a movement to turn the Federal left. With the hope of a coordinated attack now lost, Lee was forced to modify his plans. He determined to shift his main attack to the Federal center on Cemetery Ridge. Longstreet was placed in command of the effort. The plan was first to subject the Federal position to bombardment by nearly 140 cannon, then to send Pickett, Pettigrew and half of Trimble's divisions (formerly Heth's and Pender's) - nearly 12,000 men - forward to smash the Federal center.

While Longstreet made his preparations during the morning, Ewell's forces were defeated in their counterattacks on Culp's Hill, and withdrew around 11:00 a.m.

At l:00 p.m., Longstreet opened the great bombardment of the Federal line. The Federal army replied with approximately 80 cannon and a giant duel ensued which lasted for nearly two hours. After the bombardment subsided, the infantry went forward. This has subsequently been known throughout history as "Pickett's Charge." Federal artillery, followed by musketry, cut their formations to pieces and inflicted devastating losses. A small Confederate force effected one small penetration of the Federal line, but was overwhelmed. The attack ended in disaster, with nearly 5,600 Confederate casualties. Meanwhile, three miles east of Gettysburg, Stuart's cavalry was engaged by Federal cavalry under Brigadier General David Gregg. The cavalry clash was indecisive, but Stuart was neutralized and posed no threat to the Federal rear.

The battle was effectively over. Federal losses numbered approximately 23,000, while estimates of Confederate losses range between 20,000 and 28,000. Source: This description of the battle was taken, for the most part, from James M. McPherson's " The Atlas of the Civil War."

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FReeper Foxhole Armed Services Links

[Iris7]

Grant's Tomb has been in a rough neighborhood for quite a long while. Not a pleasant visit.

[snippy_about_it]

Good points Mike. By the end of the day I think I won't be sure what to think. :-)

[snippy_about_it]

ROTFLOL.

[Iris7]

Each comment is acute. I have nothing to add.

Kudos, everyone.

[snippy_about_it]

(I wonder where He's buried?)

LOL.

[snippy_about_it]

Good afternoon Iris7.

[alfa6]

BTW an update on Mrs alfa6.

I got her home yesterday about noon time. The Mrs is able to get around the addition without any problems. She is still having problems with her leg cramping which interfers with her sleeping. We are hoping to get that under control in the next day or so.

The wife was able to walk about halfway down the block and back this afternoon. We did this twice. She is also able to get up and down the three steps from the addition to the rest of the house without any issues.

All in all no complaints so far. The home therapist stopped by today and she was happy with the wife's range of movment and her ability to get around the house.

Last but not least a couple of pics the first is generic a before and after pic of a toal knee replacement.

Here is a pic of what the replacement looks like before and after installation.

Y'all have a good day and we will see ya later :-)

Regards

alfa6 ;>}

[U S Army EOD]

Yep, the ones we really want to remember.

[alfa6]

Never been to New Yaak City and quite frankly I have no desire to go there. Too many years of bad press I reckon. I find that as I get older I have become less adventuresome.

Regards

alfa6 ;>}

[Iris7]

The Army of Northern Virginia was remarkably tenacious. Always completely reliable even though very poorly supplied.

No arguments whatever with your big picture view of the war.

General Jackson saw what would have worked, I think. Stand Watie, on this thread often, sees things a bit like Jackson did IMHO. Total war, People's War. Absolute discipline, resoluteness, and ferocity. Geronimo writ real large, I figure. I dunno, was bad enough the way it was, that's for sure.

[MNJohnnie]

The South certainly did not lose for any lack of idealism, or dedication to its cause or beliefs, or bravery and skill on the battlefield. In those virtues the Confederate soldier was unexcelled, and it's my belief that man-for-man there was no finer army in the history of America than the Army of Northern Virginia.

Nonsense. Explain Pickets Charge or anything at Gettysburg as representative of Confederate "skill on the battlefield" I would agree to the extent that it is the Army of Northern Virgina (ANV is the American Army with the greatest PR machine. Basically our vision of the Army of Northern Virginia is shaped by the propaganda published after the war about it. The facts remain that the ANV won its victories by the mistakes of it's enemies not the brilliance of its commanders. Without McClellan's timidity, Pope's loss of situational awareness, Bursides fixation on frontal attacks or Hookers incompetence in securing his flank, none of the ANV victories happen. One of the facts that has always puzzled me. Lee took as many causalities as Grant in the Overland Campaign of 1864, yet we only here about the "Butcher Grant" never about "Butcher Lee". The fact is Grant is a better General then Lee. Grant understood that he had to break the South's will to fight. To do that he had to break Lee's Army. To do that meant non stop fighting. And no amount of propaganda about the "Lost Cause" can hide the fact that "Butcher Grant" whipped Gentleman Bobby Lee.

As for the "Best American Army" if the criteria are "bravery and skill on the battlefield" there is not one in History that can stand up man to man with the one we field right now.

[MNJohnnie]

General Jackson saw what would have worked, I think. Stand Watie, on this thread often, sees things a bit like Jackson did IMHO. Total war, People's W


But it was only Grant and Sherman who actually put the concept to work. Hate to rain on all this southern pride but the simple fact remains the Civil War was a transitional war from the Napoleonic to the Modern. Lee fought Napoleonic style, Grant fought WW1 style. Grant won, Lee lost.

[Soaring Feather]

Wonderful news regarding Mrs. alfa's progress.


Hope she continues in a rapid recovery.

[Darksheare]

COOL!
I'm jealous now.

[alfa6]

Thanks for them kind words :-), her is another 'Cat pic for ya

Regards

alfa6 ;>}

[Darksheare]

LOL!

[alfa6]

Might I enquire as to why you are jealous???

Regards

alfa6 ;>}

[Soaring Feather]

Great, I thank you.

[Darksheare]

Yes.
My knees are crud, the tech knees look cool, and those won't chip scratch or dent.

[F-117A]

My Great Great Gradfather says, "Vicksburg".