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The FReeper Foxhole Presents the Saturday Symposium - Vicksburg or Gettysburg? - July 23rd, 2005
see educational sources

Posted on 07/23/2005 11:29:20 AM PDT by snippy_about_it


Keep our Troops forever in Your care

Give them victory over the enemy...

Grant them a safe and swift return...

Bless those who mourn the lost.

FReepers from the Foxhole join in prayer
for all those serving their country at this time.

...................................................................................... ...........................................

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Vicksburg or Gettysburg?

sym·po·sium : a social gathering at which there is free interchange of ideas

So now let's get on with the discussion. Pull up a chair or grab a spot on the floor around the virtual Foxhole Cabin and let's chat. Here is today's question.

Gettysburg was considered the turning point in the War Between the States. Vicksburg fell a few days earlier. Which do you believe was more important? Background:

The Battle of Vicksburg

From mid-Oct. 1862, Maj. Gen. Ulysses S. Grant made several attempts to take Vicksburg. Following failures in the first attempts, the Battle of Chickasaw Bluffs, the Yazoo Pass Expedition, and Steele's Bayou Expedition, in the spring of 1863 he prepared to cross his troops from the west bank of the Mississippi River to a point south of Vicksburg and drive against the city from the south and east. Commanding Confederate batteries at Port Hudson, La., farther south prevented the transportation of waterborne supply and any communication from Union forces in Baton Rouge and New Orleans. Naval support for his campaign would have to come from Rear Adm. David D. Porter's fleet north of Vicksburg. Running past the powerful Vicksburg batteries, Porter's vessels, once south of the city, could ferry Federals to the east bank. There infantry would face 2 Confederate forces, one under Lt. Gen. John C. Pemberton at Vicksburg and another around Jackson, Miss., soon to be commanded by Gen. Joseph E. Johnston.

In Jan. 1863 Grant organized his force into the XI Corps under Maj. Gen. John A. McClernand, the XV Corps under Maj. Gen. William T. Sherman, the XVI Corps under Maj. Gen. Stephen A. Hurlbut, and the XVII Corps under Maj. Gen. James B. McPherson. Simultaneous with Grant's Vicksburg offensive, Maj. Gen. Nathaniel P. Banks began his maneuvering along the Red River in Louisiana. Hurlbut's corps was subsequently transferred to New Orleans. With his 3 remaining corps, Grant began operations late in March. On the 29th and 30th McClernand's and McPherson's men, at Milliken's Bend and Lake Providence, northwest of Vicksburg, began working their way south, building a military road to New Carthage, La., preparatory to a move south to Hard Times, La., a village opposite Bruinsburg, Miss.

On the night of 16 Apr., at Grant's request, Porter took 12 vessels south past the Vicksburg batteries, losing 1 to Confederate fire. On 17 Apr. Grierson's Raid began. Led by Brig. Gen. Benjamin H. Grierson, Federal cavalry left La Grange, Tenn., for 16 days riding through central Mississippi to Baton Rouge, La., pulling away large units from Vicksburg's defense to pursue them. Porter, encouraged by light losses on his first try, ran a large supply flotilla past the Vicksburg batteries the night of 22 Apr. Sherman's troops, many at work on a canal project at Duckport, abandoned this work, joined in a last action along the Yazoo River, northeast of Vicksburg, and 29-30 Apr. made a demonstration against Confederate works at Haynes' Bluff and Drumgould's Bluffs, diverting more of Pemberton's force. Also on 29 Apr., as McClernand's and McPherson's troops gathered near Hard Times, Porter's fleet assailed Confederate batteries at Grand Gulf, 33 mi. southwest of Vicksburg, testing the Grand Gulf area as a landing site for Union troops. Though Porter found the guns there too strong, he had succeeded in further diverting Pemberton in Vicksburg.

Grant had originally determined that Rodney, Miss., would be the starting point of his invasion, but took the advice of a local slave and picked Bruinsburg instead. McClernand's and McPherson's corps were ferried east across the Mississippi from Hard Times 30 Apr. That day Grant sent word north for Sherman to follow McPherson's route south and join him.

On I May the Federal invasion force engaged the Confederates in the Battle of Port Gibson. Pemberton had just over 40,000 men assigned to the Vicksburg region. Since they were scattered throughout the area, chasing Grierson and wary of Sherman, few of them could be brought to bear against Grant on short notice. Defeated at Port Gibson, Pemberton's troops moved north. Grant, to Pemberton's confusion, pushed northeast. Sherman's corps joined him 8 May, and 12 May the engagement at Raymond was fought. Johnston took personal command of Confederates at Jackson, 15 mi northeast of Raymond, 13 May. On 14 May Federals quickly won an engagement at Jackson, cut off Johnston from Pemberton, and ensured the latter's isolation for the rest of the campaign. In 2 weeks Grant's force had come well over 130 mi. northeast from their Bruinsburg landing site.

Ordering Sherman to destroy Jackson's heavy industry and rail facilities, Grant turned west, roughly following the Southern Mississippi Railroad to Bolton, and 16 May fought the climactic combat of his field campaign, the Battle Of Champion's Hill. With the largest force he had yet gathered to oppose Grant, Pemberton nevertheless took a beating there and pulled his army into the defenses of Vicksburg. In a delaying battle at Big Black River Bridge, 17 May, Confederates crossed the Big Black, destroying their river crossings behind them. Undeterred, Federals threw up their own bridges and continued pursuit the next day.

Approaching from the east and northeast, McClernand's, McPherson's, and Sherman's corps neared the Vicksburg defenses 1 8 May, Sherman's veering north to take the hills overlooking the Yazoo River. Possession of these heights assured Grant's reinforcement and supply from the North. The next day Federals made the failed first assault on Vicksburg. The second assault, 22 May, was a disaster for Union forces, showed the strength of the miles of Confederate works arching east around the city, and convinced Grant that Pemberton could only be defeated in a protracted siege.

The siege of Vicksburg began with the repulse of the 22 May assault and lasted until 4 July 1 863. As the siege progressed, Pemberton's 20,000-man garrison was reduced by disease and starvation, and the city's residents were forced to seek the refuge of caves and bombproofs in the surrounding hillsides, Hunger and daily bombardments by Grant's forces and Porter's gunboats compelled Pemberton to ask for surrender terms 3 July. Grant offered none, but on the garrison's capitulation immediately paroled the bulk of the force. Many of these same men would later oppose him at Chattanooga.

Pemberton's surrender ended the Vicksburg Campaign. But during the siege, to the east Johnston had raised a 31,000 man force in the Jackson area. On 4 July, as Confederates were being paroled, Sherman moved his force to oppose this new threat. Sherman's march would result in the Siege of Jackson. Source: "Historical Times Encyclopedia of the Civil War" edited by Patricia L. Faust

The Gettysburg Campaign

JUNE 1863

Following his victory at Chancellorsville in May, 1863, General Lee received approval from his government to invade the north. Lee hoped an invasion would fuel the northern peace movement and, at least, disrupt the Union war effort. After the death of Stonewall Jackson, Lee's Army of Northern Virginia, 75,000-strong, had been reorganized into three army corps under Longstreet, Ewell, and A.P. Hill, with a cavalry division under J.E.B. Stuart. On June 3, advance troops of the Confederate army left their camps near Fredericksburg and marched west toward the Shenandoah Valley.

The 95,000-strong Federal Army of the Potomac, under General Hooker, was initially uncertain of Lee's intentions. On June 9, Hooker ordered cavalry general Alfred Pleasonton to conduct a reconnaissance with 11,000 men across the Rappahannock River toward Brandy Station. Pleasonton ran into Stuart's cavalry, and the largest cavalry battle of the war ensued. The result was a standoff, but the Federals were now alerted to the Confederate army's movements.

By June 13, elements of Ewell's corps appeared before Winchester. On the same day, Hooker with-drew the Army of the Potomac from the Rappahannock and ordered it north. On June 14-15, Ewell attacked the 9,000-strong Federal garrison at Winchester and defeated it, inflicting heavy losses and capturing much valuable war material.

After Winchester, Lee's army moved unchecked into the Cumberland Valley of Pennsylvania. On June 25, Lee agreed to Stuart's plan to take three brigades of cavalry across the Potomac cast of the Blue Ridge Mountains, and cut across the rear of the Federal army. Stuart's march encountered frequent delays and detours and an increasingly aggressive Federal cavalry, and was unable to rejoin Lee until July 2.

By June 28, Longstreet and Hill's corps were at Chambersburg. Divisions of Ewell's corps had crossed the mountains to York and Carlisle, and were preparing to move against Harrisburg. However, Lee learned on this day that the Federal army was at Frederick, and that Hooker had been replaced by General Meade. Lee decided to bring his entire army east of the mountains and offer battle. At the same time, Meade moved his army north. By June 30, both armies were converging upon Gettysburg and the battle, which would be the turning point of the war, was set to commence.

JULY 1 1863

After the discovery on June 30 that Gettysburg was occupied by Brigadier General John Buford's division of Federal cavalry, the Confederates on July 1 sent the divisions of Major General Henry Heth and Major General William Pender of Hill's Corps, down the Chambersburg Road to drive Buford away and occupy Gettysburg.

The battle began at 5.30 a.m., when shots were exchanged over Marsh Creek. In the face of Buford's resistance, Heth pushed on cautiously until he reached a point about two miles west of Gettysburg. Here he deployed two brigades in line, and pressed ahead; it was nearly 10 a.m. Federal General John F. Reynolds, commanding I Corps, arrived on the field at this point, and determined to engage Herb. He ordered I Corps and Major General Oliver 0. Howard's XI Corps to march to Gettysburg.

Soon after 10.30 a.m., I Corps arrived and engaged Heth along McPherson's Ridge. By 11.30 a.m., Heth had been defeated and forced to withdraw to Herr Ridge. Early in the action, Reynolds was killed, and field command devolved upon Howard. A lull now settled over the field as both sides brought up reinforcements. The Federal I Corps deployed to defend the western approaches to Gettysburg, while XI Corps formed up north of the town. Buford's cavalry covered the flanks. Howard left one division in reserve on Cemetery Hill. His strategy was simple: delay the Confederates long enough to enable the rest of the Federal army to concentrate. Lee arrived on the field after noon. He had initially hoped to avoid a general engagement since the strength of the enemy was unknown, and the terrain in the Gettysburg area unfamiliar. But, soon after noon, Rodes's division of Ewell's Corps arrived on Oak Hill and attacked the right of I Corps. At 2 p.m. Heth's division joined the attack on I Corps. At 3 p.m., the battle spread north of the town when Jubal Early's division of Ewell's Corps attacked down the Harrisburg Road and crushed the flank of XI Corps. At about the same time, west of Gettysburg, Pender's division relieved Heth and assaulted I Corps' position along Seminary Ridge. By 4 p.m., both Federal corps were in retreat through Gettysburg to Cemetery Hill. Federal losses numbered slightly over 9,000, including some 3,000 captured, compared with Confederate losses of about 6,500.

The day's action had resulted in a Confederate victory, but Federal forces held onto the high ground south of Gettysburg, where their position was soon strengthened by reinforcements.

JULY 2 1863

The success of his army in the fighting on July 1 encouraged Lee to renew the battle on July 2. An early morning reconnaissance of the Federal left revealed that their line did not extend as far south as Little Round Top. Lee directed Longstreet to take two divisions of I Corps and march south until they reached the flank of the Federal forces. They would attack from this point, supported by a division of A.P. Hill's corps - a total force of nearly 20,000 men. While Longstreet carried out the main offensive, Ewell was ordered to conduct a demonstration against the Federal right. However, he was given discretion to mount a full-scale attack should the opportunity present itself.

The Federal army was well prepared for Lee's offensive. Six of its seven corps had arrived on the battlefield, and VI Corps was making a thirty-six-mile forced march to reach it. Meade had deployed his army in a fish-hook-shaped formation, with the right on Culp's Hill and Cemetery Hill, the center along Cemetery Ridge, and the left on Little Round Top. The left of the Federal line was held by Major General Daniel Sickles's III Corps. Sickles was dissatisfied with his assigned position and in the early afternoon, without orders, he advanced his line nearly half a mile west in order to take advantage of the high open ground around a nearby peach orchard.

Soon after Sickles took up this new position, Longstreet attacked. Third Corps was hard pressed and Meade sent V Corps and part of 11 Corps to reinforce Sickles in the Peach Orchard. But, after furious fighting, Longstreet's forces broke through, causing Sickles's entire line to collapse. The Confederates pursued to the base of Little Round Top, but Federal reinforcements, including elements of VI Corps, checked their advance. Farther north, elements of a division of the Confederate III Corps advanced to the slopes of Cemetery Ridge before they too were forced to retire.

On the Federal right, Ewell did not attack until evening, after Longstreet's onslaught had subsided. The effort to storm Cemetery Hill was ultimately unsuccessful. Ewell's attacks were also repulsed at Culp's Hill, although a foothold was gained near the base of the hill.

The second day's fighting had cost each army some 9,000 casualties. Lee's forces had again gained ground, but had failed to dislodge the Federal army from its strong position.

JULY 3 1863

Lee's confidence was unshaken by the events of July 2. That night, he ordered Longstreet, who had been reinforced by Major General George Pickett's division, to renew his assault on the Federal left. Simultaneously, Ewell, who had also been reinforced, was to storm Culp's Hill. Stuart's cavalry, which had rejoined the army late that day, was ordered to march well east of Gettysburg, and attempt to penetrate to the Federal rear where they might disrupt communications and distract Meade.

Meanwhile, Meade had determined to hold his position and await Lee's attack. However, at Culp's Hill he authorized XII Corps to drive Ewell's forces out of the captured Federal trenches at daylight. The Federal effort opened with a concentrated artillery bombardment which precipitated a tremendous musketry battle.

With Ewell already engaged, Lee rode to Longstreet's headquarters to observe his preparations for the attack on the Federal left. Longstreet misunderstood his orders and was planning instead a movement to turn the Federal left. With the hope of a coordinated attack now lost, Lee was forced to modify his plans. He determined to shift his main attack to the Federal center on Cemetery Ridge. Longstreet was placed in command of the effort. The plan was first to subject the Federal position to bombardment by nearly 140 cannon, then to send Pickett, Pettigrew and half of Trimble's divisions (formerly Heth's and Pender's) - nearly 12,000 men - forward to smash the Federal center.

While Longstreet made his preparations during the morning, Ewell's forces were defeated in their counterattacks on Culp's Hill, and withdrew around 11:00 a.m.

At l:00 p.m., Longstreet opened the great bombardment of the Federal line. The Federal army replied with approximately 80 cannon and a giant duel ensued which lasted for nearly two hours. After the bombardment subsided, the infantry went forward. This has subsequently been known throughout history as "Pickett's Charge." Federal artillery, followed by musketry, cut their formations to pieces and inflicted devastating losses. A small Confederate force effected one small penetration of the Federal line, but was overwhelmed. The attack ended in disaster, with nearly 5,600 Confederate casualties. Meanwhile, three miles east of Gettysburg, Stuart's cavalry was engaged by Federal cavalry under Brigadier General David Gregg. The cavalry clash was indecisive, but Stuart was neutralized and posed no threat to the Federal rear.

The battle was effectively over. Federal losses numbered approximately 23,000, while estimates of Confederate losses range between 20,000 and 28,000. Source: This description of the battle was taken, for the most part, from James M. McPherson's " The Atlas of the Civil War."

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Come on in!

Good morning everyone. Enjoy your Saturday and a break from the Foxhole into the cabin. Come nightfall please feel free to join us around the campfire.

Educational Sources:

1 posted on 07/23/2005 11:29:21 AM PDT by snippy_about_it
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To: vox_PL; Bigturbowski; ruoflaw; Bombardier; Steelerfan; SafeReturn; Brad's Gramma; AZamericonnie; ...

"FALL IN" to the FReeper Foxhole!

Good Saturday Morning Everyone.

If you want to be added to our ping list, let us know.

2 posted on 07/23/2005 11:31:00 AM PDT by snippy_about_it (Fall in --> The FReeper Foxhole. America's History. America's Soul.)
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To: snippy_about_it

Good afternoon, Snippy and everyone at the foxhole.

3 posted on 07/23/2005 11:32:28 AM PDT by E.G.C.
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To: snippy_about_it; bentfeather; Samwise; Peanut Gallery; Wneighbor
Good morning ladies. Flag-o-Gram.

4 posted on 07/23/2005 11:34:25 AM PDT by Professional Engineer (Dining room, we don't need no stinkin dining room! Classroom space, on the other hand, is valuable.)
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To: Professional Engineer; SAMWolf; snippy_about_it; alfa6; PhilDragoo; Valin; radu; Samwise; ...

Whew, thought you guys would never get here!

Hold on, I am running as fast as I can to the FOXHOLE Saturday Symposium!

5 posted on 07/23/2005 11:53:07 AM PDT by Soaring Feather (This Little Light of Mine)
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To: snippy_about_it

I am here.
*taps own forehead, feels nothing*

I'm numb!
*runs off screaming*

6 posted on 07/23/2005 11:53:20 AM PDT by Darksheare (Hey troll, Sith happens.)
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To: snippy_about_it; SAMWolf; All

Thanks for posting the Saturday Foxhole, after all I know y'all ain't got nutin better to do with your time :-)

I would have to rate Gettysburg as #1 because it ended the Souths hope of taking the war to the North. Had Lee been succesful then the outcome of TWBS might well have turned out in a different manner.

This is not to down play the accomplishment of Grant at Vicksburg in any way. By capturing Vicksburg Grant and the Federal were able to effectively cut the Confederacy in two. However the military brain trust of the Confederacy would not spare the manpower from the Virgina theater to rescue Vicksburg for fear of Richmond falling.

More later, I Hope


alfa6 ;>}

7 posted on 07/23/2005 12:10:46 PM PDT by alfa6
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To: snippy_about_it

On This Day In History

Birthdates which occurred on July 23:
1339 Louis I, Duke of Anjou/King of Naples (Battle at Poitiers)
1816 Charlotte Sanders Cushman US, actress (Lady MacBeth)
1822 Darius Nash Couch, Major General (Union volunteers), died in 1897
1824 Gabriel Colvin Wharton, Brig General (Confederate Army), died in 1906
1834 James Cardinal Gibbons archbishop of Baltimore
1884 Albert Warner, US producer (Warner Bros)
1888 Dr Milan Stoyadinovich Serbia, fascist Yugoslavia PM (1935-9)
1892 Haile Selassie(Ras Tafari Makonnen) emperor of Ethiopia (1930-74)
1893 Karl Menninger psychiatrist (Menninger Clinic)
1894 Arthur Treacher Brighton England, announcer (Merv Griffin Show)
1919 Pee Wee Reese Hall of Fame shortstop (Dodgers)
1921 Calvert DeForest, Brooklyn NY, comedian (Larry "Bud" Melman)
1925 Gloria De Haven LA, actress (Bog, Yellow Cab Man, Irene-Nakia)
1933 Bert Convy St Louis Mo, actor (Snoop Sisters, Win Lose or Draw)
1936 Anthony M Kennedy Calif, supreme court justice (1988- )
1936 Don Drysdale Van Nuys Calif, pitcher (LA Dodgers-Cy Young 1962)
1938 Ronny Cox Cloudcroft Mass, actor (St Elsewhere)
1943 Tony Joe White, rocker (Polk Salad Annie)
1947 Don Imus radio personality (IMUS in the Morning)
1950 Blair Thornton guitarist (Bachman-Turner-Overdrive)
1961 Woody Harrelson Midland Tx, actor (Woody Boyd-Cheers)
1971 Aimee Rinehart, Miss Missouri USA (1996)
1971 Alison Krauss, Decatur Ill, country singer (2 Highways)
1972 Marlon Wayans, comedian (Wayans Bros, In Living Color)
1982 Schottzie Schott dog mascot of the Cincinatti Reds

Deaths which occurred on July 23:
1373 Birgitta van Sweden, Swedish saint, dies
1403 Henry Percy, [Harry Hotspur], killed in battle at 39
1793 Thomas Mckean, US attorney/signer (Decl of Independence), dies at 72
1816 Elizabeth Hamilton, author (Cats: A Celebration), dies at 68
1844 Christian Gobrecht 4th US chief engraver (1840-44), dies in office
1875 Isaac Merritt Singer, inventor (sewing machine), dies at 63

1885 Ulysses S Grant 18th US pres, dies in Mount McGregor, NY, at 63 (I wonder where He's buried?)

1930 Glenn Hammond Curtiss, aviation pioneer/airplane builder, dies at 52
1943 Emanuel Querido, publisher (Sobibor), dies
1943 Meijer de Hond, [Emanuel Querido], rabbi (Sobibor), dies
1944 Bernard M Cohen, attorney, killed at Belsen concentration camp
1944 Helmuth J von Moltke, German earl (July 20th plotter), executed
1955 Cordell Hull, statesman, dies
1961 Esther Dale, actress (Birdie-Ma and Pa Kettle), dies after surgery at 75
1971 Van Heflin actor (Great Adventure), dies at 60
1973 Eddie Rickenbacker, WW I fighter pilot ACE, dies at 82
1982 Vic Morrow killed during filming of "Twilight Zone" at 53
1985 Kay Kyser (James King Kern Kyser) US bandleader, dies
1990 Joe Turner jazz pianist, dies at 82 of cardiac arrest
1997 Andrew Cunanan, serial killer (Gianni Versage), commits suicide
1999 King Hassan II of Morocco dies at age 70.
2002 Leo McKern (82), Australian actor, died ("Rumpole of the Bailey.")
2002 Chaim Potok (73), rabbi and author "The Chosen"

GWOT Casualties

23-Jul-2003 2 | US: 2 | UK: 0 | Other: 0
US Captain Joshua T. Byers Baghdad Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack
US Specialist Brett T. Christian Mosul - Ninawa Hostile - hostile fire - RPG attack

A Good Day
Data research by Pat Kneisler
Designed and maintained by Michael White
Go here and I'll stop nagging.
(subtle hint SEND MONEY)

On this day...
0306 Constantine proclaimed Caesar in the west by the army
0636 Arabs gain control of most of Palestine from the Byzantine Empire
0685 John V begins his reign as Catholic Pope
1148 Crusaders attack Damascus
1215 Frederik II crowns himself Roman Catholic king
1253 Jews are expelled from Vienne France by order of Pope Innocent III
1298 Jews are massacred at Wurzburg Germany
1403 Battle of Shrewsbury the Percys battle King Henry IV
1664 Wealthy non-church members in Massachusetts were given the right to vote
1764 James Otis publishes views on taxation without representation
1798 Napoleon captures Alexandria, Egypt
1803 Robert Emmett's insurrected in Dublin
1827 1st US swim school opens (Boston Mass)
1829 William Austin Burt patents "typographer" (typewriter)
1840 Union Act passed by British Parliament, uniting Upper and Lower Canada
1848 Battle of Custoza-Italian War of Independence, starts
1851 Sioux/Dakota Indians and US sign the Treaty of Traverse des Sioux at what is now St Peter Mn. (Treaty of Traverse des Sioux ceded to the U.S. lands in southwestern portions of the Minnesota Territoryfor $1.665 million in cash and annuities.)
1852 1st interment in US National Cemetary at Presidio
1858 Jewish Disabilities Removal Act passed by British Parliament, grants full civil equality to Jews
1863 "Bloody" Bill Anderson and his Confederate Bushwackers attack the railway station at Renick, Missouri
1864 Battle of Woodstock, VA
1865 William Booth founds the Salvation Army
1866 Cincinnati Baseball club (The Reds) established

1868 The 14th Amendment ratified, granting full citizenship to African Americans.

1880 1st commercial hydroelectric power planet begins, Grand Rapids, Mich
1886 Steve Brodie supposedly survives plunge from Brooklyn Bridge
1888 John Boyd Dunlop, applies to patent pneumatic tire
1894 Japanese troops take over the Korean imperial palace in Seoul
1903 Ford Motor Company sells its first automobile, the Model A. (You can have it in any color you want, as long as it's black)

1904 Ice cream cone created by Charles E Menches during La Purchase Expo

1906 Pogrom against Jews in Oddessa
1914 Austria-Hungary issues ultimatum to Serbia leading to WW I
1920 Kenya becomes a British crown colony
1921 Edward Gourdin of the US, sets then long jump record at 25' 2 3/4"
1925 NY Yankee Lou Gehrig hits his 1st of 23 career grand slammers
1931 France announces they can't afford to send a team to 1932 LA olympics
1937 Isolation of pituitary hormone announced (Yale University)
1940 German bombers begin the "Blitz," the all-night air raids on London.
1942 German troops conquer Rostow
1942 Nazis open 2nd camp at Treblinka. (nearly 750,000 people died in the gas chambers of Treblinka)
1943 Battle of Koersk, USSR ends in Nazi defeat (6,000 tanks)
1944 US forces invade Japanese-held Tinian
1947 1st (US Navy) air squadron of jets, Quonset Point, RI
1948 Progressive party convention nominates Henry Wallace for President
1952 General Neguib seizes power, Monarchy overthrown in Egypt (Natl Day)
1956 Bell X-2 rocket plane sets world aircraft speed record of 3,050 kph
1958 1st 4 women named to peerage in House of Lords
1965 Beatles "Help" is released in the UK
1966 Napoleon XIV releases "They're Coming to Take Me Away, Ha! Ha!"
1967 43 killed in Detroit race riots (2,000 injured, 442 fires)
1968 "Classy" Fred Blasie wins 5th wrestling world championship belt
1968 PLO's 1st hijacking of an El Al plane
1968 Race riot in Cleveland, 11 including 3 cops killed
1972 1st Earth Resources Technology Satellite (ERTS) is launched
1972 Eddy Merckx (Belgium) wins his 4th consecutive Tour de France
1973 Qaboos bin Said Al Said, becomes Sultan and Prime Minister of Oman
1974 Greek military dictatorship collapses
1977 Washington jury convicts 12 Hanafi Moslems on hostage charges
1978 Israeli cabinet rejects Sadat's call for return of 2 Sinai areas
1980 Billy Carter admits to being paid by Libya
1980 River of No Return Wilderness Area designated by Jimmy Carter
1980 Soyuz 37 ferries 2 cosmonauts (1 Vietnamese) to Salyut 6
1984 Vanessa Williams, 1st black Miss America, resigns due to posing nude
1986 Britain's Prince Andrew marries Sarah Ferguson
1987 Said Aouita of Morocco runs world record 5,000 m (12:58.39)

1988 Iraq uses chemical weapons (WMDs) in Iran Iraq war

1989 FOX-TV tops ABC, NBC & CBS for 1st time (America's Most Wanted)
1989 Winds gust to 85 MPH at Fort Smith Arkansas (Was Bill Clinton speaking there?)
1993 WH deputy counsel Vincent W. Foster Jr. buried near Hope, Ark., three days after "taking his own life" in a Virginia park
1995 Comet Hale-Bopp discovered. (Reconstruction of the orbit indicated that the comet repeatedly enters the inner solar system every 3,000 years or so)
1998 Chechnya Pres. Aslan Maskhadov receives minor injuries from an assassination attempt in Grozny that killed 2 bodyguards. He had been cracking down on organized crime and Muslim terrorists
1999 3-day Woodstock '99 music festival begins (The $35-38 million production ended in chaos with hundreds of concertgoers burning fires, looting and vandalizing)
2002 An Israeli F-16 warplane fires a missile and flattens a Gaza City apartment building, killing Salah Shehadeh, the leader of Hamas' military wing

Note: Some Holidays are only applicable on a given "day of the week"

Egypt, Libya, Ethiopia, Oman : National Day (1952)
Virgin Islands : Hurricane Supplication Day (Monday)
US : Upside Down Day.
National Hot Dog Day
Baked Beans Month
(Beans, Beans, the musical fruit,
the more you eat, the more you toot.
The more you toot, the better you feel.
So lets have beans for every meal!)
[the preceeding was brought you by the National Flatulence League]

Religious Observances
Ancient Rome : Neptunalia, honoring Neptune
Buddhist-Laos : Beginning of Buddhist fast
RC : Comm of St Apollinaris, 1st bp of Ravenna, martyr
RC, Luth : Memorial of Bridget, mystic, patron of Sweden (opt)

Religious History
1779 Pioneer American Methodist bishop Francis Asbury wrote in his journal: 'I findit of more consequence to a preacher to know his Bible well, than all the languages or booksin the world -- for he is not to preach these, but the Word of God.'
1846 Birth of William R. Featherstone, Canadian Methodist hymnwriter. He penned thewords to 'My Jesus, I Love Thee' before age 16.
1860 Birth of William W. McConnell, missions pioneer. In 1891, he became the firstmissionary sent out by the Central American Mission, after its founding in 1890.
1918 Death of Joseph H. Gilmore, 84, American Baptist clergyman. He is remembered todayprimarily for the hymn, 'He Leadeth Me,' which he wrote at the age of 28.
1976 The First National Southern Baptist Charismatic Conference closed. Baptist pastorand charismatic leader Howard Conatser (1926-78) was a speaker at this convention.

Source: William D. Blake. ALMANAC OF THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH. Minneapolis: Bethany House, 1987.

Soldiers Capture Moose Loose On Base

FORT CARSON, Colo. -- Soldiers captured an intruder in a secure area of a Colorado military base, but the intruder was no criminal -- just a loose moose.

Soldiers and state wildlife officers managed to corral the 500-pound female moose, which had wandered into the part of Fort Carson reserved for equipment returning from Iraq.

Steve Cooley, a wildlife manager for the state, said the location was less than ideal for a moose. The animal was tranquilized and loaded into a trailer packed with 600 pounds of ice to keep it cool during the record heat wave.

Officials said their military moose will be released into the wild in Western Colorado.

Thought for the day :
"Courage is doing what you're afraid to do. There can be no courage unless you're scared."
Edward V. Rickenbacker

8 posted on 07/23/2005 12:19:16 PM PDT by Valin (The right to do something does not mean that doing it is right.)
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To: snippy_about_it
I get to nit- pick. I haven't gotten to do that in a long time. I'll follow with a substantive response in a few minutes.

Gettysburg was considered the turning point in the War Between the States. Vicksburg fell a few days earlier.

Gettysburg ended July 3, Vicksburg didn't fall until July 4, so the sequence here is wrong. (Trick for remembering when Vicksburg fell - the city wouldn't celebrate the 4th of July for more than a century after the battle because it also marked the anniversary of its fall.)

9 posted on 07/23/2005 12:21:39 PM PDT by PAR35
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To: snippy_about_it

Actually I prefer to talk about Bull Run and not those other two minor battles that are not really that important.

10 posted on 07/23/2005 12:27:51 PM PDT by U S Army EOD (Pray For the EOD Folks Working in the Middle East)
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To: Professional Engineer

OHHHHH! I like it!!

11 posted on 07/23/2005 12:35:25 PM PDT by SAMWolf (t+h838 *f#*D (SMACK!) MEEYOW!...and STAY off my keyboard!)
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To: PAR35

Opps! That's my fault, I told Snippy to say that. Blush!!

12 posted on 07/23/2005 12:39:22 PM PDT by SAMWolf (t+h838 *f#*D (SMACK!) MEEYOW!...and STAY off my keyboard!)
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To: snippy_about_it

I'll go with Vicksburg.

After Gettysburg, Lee still had a viable force in the field. He had the weaker force before Gettysburg, so that battle didn't significantly change the balance of power in the east. If Lee had gone into Vicksburg with the superior force and come out of it with the weaker, as with the Japanese at Midway, I would favor Gettysburg.

On the other hand, the fall of Vicksburg was a crushing blow which sealed the fate of the Confederacy.

13 posted on 07/23/2005 12:48:58 PM PDT by PAR35
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To: snippy_about_it

Today's classic warship, USS Gettysburg

Iron sidewheel steamship

Displacement. 950 t.
Lenght. 221'
Beam. 26' 3"
Draft. 13' 6"
Speed. 15 k.
Complement. 96
Armament. 1 30-pdr Parrott r., 2 12-pdr. r., 4 24-pdr. how.

The USS Gettysburg, formerly Douglas was built at Glasgow, Scotland, in 1858 for employment as an Isle of Man packet. Purchased by Confederate interests in November 1862, she soon began a remarkable career as a blockade runner. Douglas arrived at Charleston, South Carolina, in late January 1863 on her first voyage through the Federal blockade. She was renamed "Margaret and Jessie" shortly afterwards. During the next nine months, she made eight more runs into Southern ports, five to Charleston and three to Wilmington, North Carolina. While attempting another passage to Wilmington, she was captured by USS Nansemond and the U.S. Army transport Fulton on 5 November 1863.

She was purchased from the New York Prize Court by the Navy and commissioned Gettysburg at New York Navy Yard, 2 May 1864, Lieutenant Roswell H. Lamson commanding.

A fast, strong steamer, Gettysburg was assigned blockading duty with the North Atlantic Blockading Squadron, and departed New York 7 May 1864. She arrived at Beaufort, N.C., 14 May and from there took station at the entrance to the Cape Fear River.

For the next 7 months, Gettysburg was engaged in the vital business of capturing blockade runners carrying supplies to the strangling South. She captured several ships, and occasionally performed other duties. On 8 October, for instance, she rescued six survivors from schooner Horne, which had capsized in a squall.

Gettysburg took part in the attack on Fort Fisher 24-25 December 1864. Gettysburg assisted with the devastating bombardment prior to the landings by Army troops, and during the actual landings stood in close to shore to furnish cover for the assault. Gettysburg's boats were used to help transport troops to the beaches.

With the failure of the first attack on the formidable Confederate works, plans were laid for a second assault, this time including a landing force of sailors and marines to assault the sea face of the fort. In this attack, 15 January 1865, Gettysburg again engaged the fort in the preliminary bombardment, and furnished a detachment of sailors under Lieutenant Lamson and other officers in a gallant assault, which was stopped under the very ramparts of Fort Fisher. Lamson and a group of officers and men were forced to spend the night in a ditch under Confederate guns before they could escape. Though failing to take the sea face of Fort Fisher, the attack by the Navy diverted enough of the defenders to make the Army assault successful and insure victory. Gettysburg suffered two men killed and six wounded in the assault.

Gettysburg spent the remaining months of the war on blockade duty off Wilmington, and operated from April to June between Boston and Norfolk carrying freight and passengers. She decommissioned 23 June 1865 at New York Navy Yard.

Recommissioning 3 December 1866, Gettysburg made a cruise to the Caribbean Sea, returning to Washington 18 February, where she decommissioned again 1 March 1867.

Gettysburg went back into commission 3 March 1868 at Norfolk and put to sea 28 March on special service in the Caribbean. Until July 1868, she visited various ports in the area protecting American interests, among them Kingston, Jamaica; Havana, Cuba; and ports of Haiti. Between 3 July and 13 August, Gettysburg assisted in the laying of a telegraph cable from Key West to Havana, and joined with scientists from the Hydrographic Office in a cruise to determine the longitudes of West Indian points using the electric telegraph. From 13 August 1868 to 1 October 1869, she cruised between various Haitian ports and Key West, again helping to maintain peace in the area and protecting American interests. Gettysburg arrived New York Navy Yard 8 October 1869, decommissioned the same day, and entered the Yard for repairs.

Gettysburg was laid up in ordinary until 6 November 1873, when she again commissioned at Washington Navy Yard. She spent several months transporting men and supplies to the various Navy Yards on the Atlantic coast, and 25 February 1874 anchored in Pensacola harbor to embark members of the survey team seeking routes for an inter-oceanic canal in Nicaragua. Gettysburg transported the engineers to Aspinwall, Panama and Greystone, Nicaragua, and returned them to Norfolk 10 May 1874. After several more trips on the Atlantic coast with passengers and supplies, the ship again decommissioned 9 April 1875 at Washington Navy Yard.

Recommissioned 21 September 1875, Gettysburg departed Washington for Norfolk, where she arrived 14 October. Assigned to assist in another of the important Hydrographic Office expeditions in the Caribbean, she departed Norfolk 7 November. During the next few months she contributed markedly to safe navigation in the West Indies in surveys that led to precise charts She returned to Washington with the scientific team 14 June, decommissioning 26 June.

Gettysburg recommissioned 20 September 1876, for special duty to the Mediterranean, where she was to obtain navigational information about the coasts and islands of the area. Gettysburg departed Norfolk 17 October for Europe. During the next two years, she visited nearly every port in the Mediterranean, taking soundings and making observations on the southern coast of France, the entire coastline of Italy, and the Adriatic Islands. Gettysburg continued to the coast of Turkey, and from there made soundings on the coast of Egypt and other North African points, Sicily and Sardinia.

While visiting Genoa, 22 April 1879, Gettysburg rescued the crew of a small vessel which had run upon the rocks outside the breakwater. Her iron plates corroded from years of almost uninterrupted service and her machinery weakened, Gettysburg decommissioned 6 May 1879 and was sold at Genoa, Italy 8 May 1879.

14 posted on 07/23/2005 12:49:24 PM PDT by aomagrat
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To: snippy_about_it

I will go with Gettysburg.

Gettysburg more or less set up the rest of the war from tactics to numbers of troops to commander's both effective and ineffective AND it showed the North that Lee was not invincible.

Had the Union lost Gettysburg, Lee could have remained in the North and that would have more or less finished the war.

15 posted on 07/23/2005 1:21:16 PM PDT by MikefromOhio (Proud member of Planet ManRam)
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To: snippy_about_it

Good afternoon ALL.

16 posted on 07/23/2005 1:35:24 PM PDT by GailA (Glory be to GOD and his only son Jesus.)
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To: snippy_about_it
Vicksburg was the key. It gave the Union control of the Mississippi and cut off the Southwest from the Confederacy. Gettysburg took on significance afterwards as the biggest battle and "high water mark" of the Confederacy.

Actually, though it could be said that the rebels still had a chance up until the 1864 election. A major victory in the Summer or Fall of 1864, just might have changed things. Gettysburg looks like the last hurrah in retrospect because it wasn't followed by another attack on Lee's part.

These kinds of questions pop up whenever wars are fought on two or more fronts. Normandy or Stalingrad? Nimitz or McArthur? The failure of Hindenburg's offensive on the Western Front or the collapse of Imperial Germany's allies in the East.

17 posted on 07/23/2005 1:39:49 PM PDT by x
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To: snippy_about_it
Which do you believe was more important?

Neither! The more I study this war the less inclined I am to subscribe to the "turning point" concept. It makes for entertaining discussion but misses the big picture. IMHO, while these two particular battles carried enormous military weight for both moral and logistics, a victory by the South in either of these great battles would only accomplish prolonging the war. Therein lies the problem. The South prolongs a war wherein it could never match the North's industrial base, manpower resources and all this with a total and successful Naval blockade. There is too much validity for these aspects to be ignored. And the fact that foreign recognition was denied the Confederacy. In time these things would tell on the battlefield, certainly on the broader level. The North was able to bring its industry and its manpower to bear in such a way that eventually, through sheer numerical and material advantage, it gained and maintained the upper hand.

Lincoln's determination was backed by relentless resolve . . . no particular battle would have brought him to a "peace negotiation". As long as Lincoln was determined to prosecute the war and as long as the North was behind him, inevitably superior manpower and resources just had to win out.

Following Gettysburg Lee trashed Grant in both the Wilderness Campaign and Cold Harbor. And Joe Johnston's Army of Tennessee was continually formidable against Sherman at Resaca, Calhoun, Kingston, New Hope Church, etc. with Forrest in Sherman's rear constantly cutting off his supply lines. Why weren't any of these battles a "turning point" for the South? Because the North's objective and resolve was to simply wear down the South militarily, economically, politically and socially.

The South certainly did not lose for any lack of idealism, or dedication to its cause or beliefs, or bravery and skill on the battlefield. In those virtues the Confederate soldier was unexcelled, and it's my belief that man-for-man there was no finer army in the history of America than the Army of Northern Virginia.

It is be a testament to our idealism and beliefs that the South held out as long as it did.


18 posted on 07/23/2005 2:17:00 PM PDT by w_over_w (If you wash camels for a living . . . which day of the week is "hump day"?)
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To: SAMWolf; Iris7; Valin; PAR35; stainlessbanner

Ooops! Ping to #18.

19 posted on 07/23/2005 2:20:12 PM PDT by w_over_w (If you wash camels for a living . . . which day of the week is "hump day"?)
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To: w_over_w

I played football in college but I was not very big, however I had that will to win no matter what. I played against bigger and faster people with the same will to win. I learned that when you put a smaller guy up against a bigger guy with the same desire, at the end of the game, the smaller guy will usually be in a lot of pain.

20 posted on 07/23/2005 2:46:18 PM PDT by U S Army EOD (Pray For the EOD Folks Working in the Middle East)
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