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Thomas A. Droleskey on the Lies of Protestantism
Seattle Catholic ^ | September 29, 2003 | Thomas A. Droleskey

Posted on 09/30/2003 9:32:47 AM PDT by Fifthmark

Protestantism is founded on many lies: (1) That Our Blessed Lord and Savior Jesus Christ did not create a visible, hierarchical Church. (2) That there is no authority given by Our Lord to the Pope and his bishops and priests to govern and to sanctify the faithful. (3) That each believer has an immediate and personal relationship with the Savior as soon as he makes a profession of faith on his lips and in his heart, therefore being perpetually justified before God. (4) Having been justified by faith alone, a believer has no need of an intermediary from a non-existent hierarchical priesthood to forgive him his sins. He is forgiven by God immediately when he asks forgiveness. (5) This state of justification is not earned by good works. While good works are laudable, especially to help unbelievers convert, they do not impute unto salvation. Salvation is the result of the profession of faith that justifies the sinner. (6) That grace is merely, in the words of Martin Luther, the snowflakes that cover up the "dungheap" that is man. (7) That there is only one source of Divine Revelation, Sacred Scripture. (8) That each individual is his own interpreter of Sacred Scripture. (9) That there is a strict separation of Church and State. Princes, to draw from Luther himself, may be Christians but it is not as a Christian that they ought to rule. These lies have permutated in thousands of different directions. However, they have sewn the fabric of the modern state and popular culture for nearly 500 years (I shudder to think how the Vatican is going to commemorate the 500th anniversary of Luther's posting his 95 theses on the church doors in Wittenberg fourteen years from now).

Here below are explanations of these lies and their multifaceted implications for the world in which we live:

(1-2) The contention that Our Lord did not create a visible, hierarchical church vitiates the need for a hierarchical, sacerdotal priesthood for the administration of the sacraments. It is a rejection of the entirety of the history of Christianity prior to the Sixteenth Century. It is a denial of the lesson taught us by Our Lord by means of His submission to His own creatures, Saint Joseph and the Blessed Mother, in the Holy Family of Nazareth that each of us is to live our entire lives under authority, starting with the authority of the Vicar of Christ and those bishops who are in full communion with him. The rejection of the visible, hierarchical church is founded on the prideful belief that we are able to govern ourselves without being directed by anyone else on earth. This contention would lead in due course to the rejection of any and all religious belief as necessary for individuals and for societies. Luther and Calvin paved the way for Jean-Jacques Rousseau and the French Revolution that followed so closely the latter's deification of man.

(3-6) Baptism is merely symbolic of the Christian's desire to be associated with the Savior in the amorphous body known as the Church. What is determinative of the believer's relationship with Christ is his profession of faith. As the believer remains a reprobate sinner, all he can do is to seek forgiveness by confessing his sins privately to God. This gives the Protestant of the Lutheran strain the presumptuous sense that there is almost nothing he can do to lose his salvation once he has made his profession of faith in the Lord Jesus. There is thus no belief that a person can scale the heights of personal sanctity by means of sanctifying grace. It is impossible, as Luther projected from his own unwillingness to cooperate with sanctifying grace to overcome his battles with lust, for the believer to be anything other than a dungheap. Thus a Protestant can sin freely without for once considering that he has killed the life of sanctifying grace in his soul, thereby darkening his intellect and weakening the will and inclining himself all the more to sin-and all the more a vessel of disorder and injustice in the larger life of society.

(7-8) The rejection of a visible, hierarchical Church and the rejection of Apostolic Tradition as a source of Divine Revelation protected by that Church leads in both instances to theological relativism. Without an authoritative guide to interpret Divine Revelation, including Sacred Scripture, individual believers can come to mutually contradictory conclusions about the meaning of passages, the precise thing that has given rise to literally thousands of Protestant sects. And if a believer can reduce the Bible, which he believes is the sole source of Divine Revelation, to the level of individual interpretation, then there is nothing to prevent anyone from doing the same with all written documents, including the documents of a nation's founding. If the plain words of Scripture can be deconstructed of their meaning, it is easy to do so, say, with the words of a governmental constitution. Theological relativism paved the way for moral relativism. Moral relativism paved the way for the triumph of positivism and deconstructionism as normative in the realm of theology and that of law and popular culture.

(9) The overthrow of the Social Kingship of Jesus Christ as it was exercised by His true Church in the Middle Ages by the Protestant concept of the separation of Church and State is what gave rise to royal absolutism in Europe in the immediate aftermath of Luther's handiwork. Indeed, as I have noted any number of times before, it is arguably the case that the conditions that bred resentment on the part of colonists in English America prior to 1776 might never have developed if England had remained a Catholic nation. The monarchy would have been subject in the Eighteenth Century to same constraints as it had in the Tenth or Eleventh Centuries, namely, that kings and queens would have continued to understand that the Church reserved unto herself the right to interpose herself in the event that rulers had done things-or proposed to do things-that were contrary to the binding precepts of the Divine positive law and the natural law and/or were injurious of the cause of the sanctification and salvation of the souls of their subjects. The overthrow of the Social Kingship of Jesus Christ deposited power first of all in the hands of monarchs eager to be rid of the "interference" of the Church and ultimately in the hands of whoever happened to hold the reins of governmental power in the modern "democratic" state. Despotism has been the result in both cases

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To: Hermann the Cherusker
A priest has other duties than sacrificial. Christ has sacrificed. That he only needed do it once and then sat down is of no consequence - the duty was fulfilled. There has not been another blood sacrifice since. And this sacrifice sealed the covenant. Thusly, it preceeded Christianity as Christianity wasn't official till it was sealed. Communion is a remembrance of the sacrifice that was made - it is not a reinactment and Christ isn't contained in it. Christ, on the contrary is supposed to be in the heart of Every Christian and in constant communication therefore. Rather nullifies the need to run off to church to see Christ in a fraudulent sacrifice. But that's just another of the many obvious issues that present themselves.

Paul didn't compare, he contrasted. We have a better sacrifice because none of us is bound to a system. We have a master that did it for us once and all may partake by believing, confessing and being baptised in the spirit and then by following Christ. Plain, simple and unassuming. uncomplicated. But that doesn't serve political whims. If it's so easy, what role is there for an imposed priesthood?

I'll have to deal with the rest of this nonsense later. I need to get some sleep.
321 posted on 09/30/2003 9:33:46 PM PDT by Havoc (If you can't be frank all the time are you lying the rest of the time?)
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To: Fifthmark
Let's see how longwinded we can get by quoting everything under the moon in Scripture....

Golly, just posting a LITTLE Scripture to back up your beliefs would be a suprise!

322 posted on 09/30/2003 9:35:08 PM PDT by Elsie (Don't believe every prophecy you hear: especially *** ones........)
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To: Hermann the Cherusker
"Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid: for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed." (St. Luke 1.48) Call her Blessed not pray to her.

Proverbs teaches that a Godly mother would be called Blessed by their children (Pro 31:27   She looketh well to the ways of her household, and eateth not the bread of idleness.      Pro 31:28   Her children arise up, and call her blessed; her husband [also], and he praiseth her. )..I doubt that means they are to pray to her...nice try though

"So I say to you, there shall be joy before the angels of God upon one sinner doing penance." (St. Luke 15.10)

And??? This is not even a proof text (not a good try:>)

"Now the vision was in this manner. Onias, who had been high priest, a good and virtuous man, modest in his looks, gentle in his manners, and graceful in speech, and who from a child was exercised in virtues holding up his hands, prayed for all the people of the Jews: After this there appeared also another man, admirable for age, and glory, and environed with great beauty and majesty: Then Onias answering, said: This is a lover of his brethren, and of the people of Israel: this is he that prayeth much for the people, and for all the holy city, Jeremias, the prophet of God." (2 Maccabees 15.12-14)

Not an inspired text , but it also does not teach people to pray to Mary

Mary as Co redeemer
"And thy own soul a sword shall pierce, that, out of many hearts thoughts may be revealed." (St. Luke 2.35)

Where does this prophecy say one word about her being a co redeemer

Luk 2:34   And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this [child] is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against;     

Luk 2:35   (Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.

Unless you crucified the sinless mary for the sins of man that my friend is blasphemy and breaking the first commandment

indulgences

"And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven." (St. Matthew 16.19)

Well that is a new proof text to me..I thought you guys claimed that for confession..is that now an all purpose text?BTW The Mormons think they have the keys to the Kingdom.. etc. What else?

323 posted on 09/30/2003 9:41:42 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: Aliska
I'll have to get ahold of that book when I get in the mood. My deacon told me he was wrong about a couple of things. I didn't want to ask him what and get into it :-). No matter what you read, it raises questions and sometimes it's best to leave well enough alone.

I think that a LOT of folks are reading things that talk ABOUT the Bible, and what it's supposed to mean, without actually READING the Bible to see exactly what IT says......

A couple of verses are particularly revealing:

John 6
44. "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
45. It is written in the Prophets: `They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.

It does NOT say that MEN will teach you!

324 posted on 09/30/2003 9:42:17 PM PDT by Elsie (Don't believe every prophecy you hear: especially *** ones........)
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To: Tantumergo
We just have to keep fishing for the pre-destined ones!

What YOU are fishing for is an "A" vs "C" foodfight so you can slip away in the melee!

325 posted on 09/30/2003 9:43:57 PM PDT by Elsie (Don't believe every prophecy you hear: especially *** ones........)
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To: Hermann the Cherusker
Jesus saved her by the Immaculate Conception. He made her sinless. She didn't do it on her own.

My eyes just ROLL!

326 posted on 09/30/2003 9:46:58 PM PDT by Elsie (Don't believe every prophecy you hear: especially *** ones........)
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To: Hermann the Cherusker
**Your claiming of those Deists as Protestants proves my point that Protestantism doesn't really care what a man believes, and certainly not if he believes in Christ or not, so long as it is not Catholicism. **



Thank you for the opportunity to post this. Note only one Catholic..


Denominational Affiliations of the Framers of the Constitution
Dr. Miles Bradford of the University of Dallas did a study on the denominational classifications that the delegates to the Constitutional Convention accepted for themselves. Contrary to myth, the following list, published by Bradford, indicates that only 3 out of 55 of the framers classified themselves as Deists.

Note: only those Denominations whose Confessions of Faith were expressly Calvinistic at this time have been identified as "Calvinist" denominations. While many "Old-School" Lutherans and "Whitfield" Methodists at this time would have identified themselves with a Calvinistic view of Predestination, their affiliation has for the sake of charity been assumed to be non-Calvinist.

New Hampshire

* John Langdon, CONGREGATIONALIST -- Calvinist
* Nicholas Gilman, CONGREGATIONALIST -- Calvinist
Massachusetts

* Elbridge Gerry, EPISCOPALIAN -- Calvinist
* Rufus King, EPISCOPALIAN -- Calvinist
* Caleb Strong, CONGREGATIONALIST -- Calvinist
* Nathaniel Gorham, CONGREGATIONALIST -- Calvinist
Connecticut

* Roger Sherman, CONGREGATIONALIST -- Calvinist
* William Johnson, EPISCOPALIAN -- Calvinist
* Oliver Ellsworth, CONGREGATIONALIST -- Calvinist
New York

* Alexander Hamilton, EPISCOPALIAN -- Calvinist
* John Lansing, DUTCH REFORMED -- Calvinist
* Robert Yates, DUTCH REFORMED -- Calvinist
New Jersey

* William Patterson, PRESBYTERIAN -- Calvinist
* William Livingston, PRESBYTERIAN -- Calvinist
* Jonathan Dayton, EPISCOPALIAN -- Calvinist
* David Brearly, EPISCOPALIAN -- Calvinist
* William Churchill Houston, PRESBYTERIAN -- Calvinist

Pennsylvania

* Benjamin Franklin, DEIST
* Robert Morris, EPISCOPALIAN -- Calvinist
* James Wilson, DEIST
* Gouverneur Morris, EPISCOPALIAN -- Calvinist
* Thomas Mifflin, QUAKER
* George Clymer, QUAKER
* Thomas FitzSimmons, ROMAN CATHOLIC
* Jared Ingersoll, PRESBYTERIAN -- Calvinist

Delaware

* John Dickinson, QUAKER
* George Read, EPISCOPALIAN -- Calvinist
* Richard Bassett, METHODIST
* Gunning Beford, PRESBYTERIAN -- Calvinist
* Jacod Broom, LUTHERAN

Maryland

* Luther Martin, EPISCOPALIAN -- Calvinist
* Daniel Carroll, ROMAN CATHOLIC
* John Mercer, EPISCOPALIAN -- Calvinist
* James McHenry, PRESBYTERIAN -- Calvinist
* Daniel Jennifer, EPISCOPALIAN -- Calvinist
Virginia

* George Washington, EPISCOPALIAN (Non-Communicant)
* James Madison, EPISCOPALIAN -- Calvinist
* George Mason, EPISCOPALIAN -- Calvinist
* Edmund Randolph, EPISCOPALIAN -- Calvinist
* James Blair, Jr., EPISCOPALIAN -- Calvinist
* James McClung, PRESBYTERIAN -- Calvinist
* George Wythe, EPISCOPALIAN -- Calvinist
North Carolina

* William Davie, PRESBYTERIAN -- Calvinist
* Hugh Williamson, DEIST
* William Blount, PRESBYTERIAN -- Calvinist
* Alexander Martin, PRESBYTERIAN -- Calvinist
* Richard Spaight, EPISCOPALIAN -- Calvinist
South Carolina

* John Rutledge, EPISCOPALIAN -- Calvinist
* Charles Pinckney, EPISCOPALIAN -- Calvinist
* Pierce Butler, EPISCOPALIAN -- Calvinist
* Charles Pinckney, III, EPISCOPALIAN -- Calvinist
Georgia

* Abraham Baldwin, CONGREGATIONALIST -- Calvinist
* William Leigh Pierce, EPISCOPALIAN -- Calvinist
* William Houstoun, EPISCOPALIAN -- Calvinist
* William Few, METHODIST


327 posted on 09/30/2003 9:47:15 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: Hermann the Cherusker
Let's you and HIM fight!
328 posted on 09/30/2003 9:48:15 PM PDT by Elsie (Don't believe every prophecy you hear: especially *** ones........)
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To: Havoc
Hmmm ... AD 340, AD 370. Emperor Theodosius - didn't he come to power in AD 379? How could he give a proper name to the Church if it already clearly had one? You haven't established that. You've merely tossed out a couple of cut and pastes and want us to go gaga over them. Give us the original texts from which these quotes come. I'll be waiting; but, you probably won't like what you find.

Actually, it was not "cut and pastes" - I took down these quotes from books before the internet existed over 10 years ago, but I can point to you to hypertext references if you wish.

St. Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, 18.23 and 18.26.

St. Pacian, Epistles to Sympronian, 1.4
This epistle is not available online. I cited it out of Fr. Jurgens "Faith of the Early Fathers", Vol. 2, pg. 142

Here are some others:

Wherever the Bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. (St. Ignatius, Epistle to the Smyraens, 8.2, circa AD 110)

When finally [Polycarp] had finished his prayer, in which he remembered everyone with whom he had ever been acquainted, the small and the great, the reknowned and the unknown, and the whole Catholic Church throughout the world ... And of the elect, he was one indeed, the wonderful martyr Polycarp, who in our days was an apostolic and prophetic teacher, bishop of the Catholic Church in Smyrna. ... Now with the Apostles and all the just he is glorifying God and the Father Almighty, and he is blessing Our Lord Jesus Christ, the Savior of our souls, the Helmsman of our bodies, and the Shepherd of the Catholic Church throughout the world. (Martyrdom of St. Polycarp, 8.1, 16.2, 19.1, AD 155/157)

We say therefore, that in substance, in concept, in origin and in eminence, the ancient and Catholic Church is alone, gathering as it does into the unity of the one faith which results from the familiar covenants,- or rather, from the one covenant in different times, by the will of the one God and through the one Lord,- those already chosen, those predestined by God who knew before the foundation of the world that they would be just. (St. Clement of Alexandria, Stromateis, 7.17.107.3, AD 202)

Entire Book - St. Cyprian of Carthage, The Unity of the Catholic Church, AD 251/256

"It is therefore, the Catholic Church alone which retains true worship. This is the fountain of truth; this, the domicile of faith; this the temple of GOD. Whoever does not enter there or whoever does not go out from here, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation ... Because, however, all the various groups of heretics are confident that they are the Christians, and think that theirs is the Catholic Church, let it be known: that is the true Church, in which there is confession and penance, and which takes a salubrious care of sins and wounds to which the weak flesh is subject." (Lactantius, The Divine Institutions, 4.30.11 and 4.30.13, AD 304)

I suppose you will have us believe that Emperor Theodosius just made all this and much more up all on his own?

I believe your ignorance is showing, and badly.

329 posted on 09/30/2003 9:49:10 PM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: Fifthmark
I think this might be the last time I try to instuct heretics via an online forum.

When you evince so much respect for them, its downright ungrateful for them not to embrace uncritically everything you have to say.

330 posted on 09/30/2003 9:49:54 PM PDT by malakhi (Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.)
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To: Hermann the Cherusker
Thank you for posting Trent. Since you know the truth, you can hardly claim ignorance of it.

You are right ,it shows the heart of the Catholic Church and that Luther scared the hell out of them . Praise God that the fear tactics did not work and Protestantism was protected by the Holy Spirit

331 posted on 09/30/2003 9:53:16 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: Havoc; Tantumergo
She is dead. And that is not the point of Christianity. Do you not know scripture?

Well, I'm quite certain that YOU will die if you persist in your sins. The rest of us hope to live in Christ.

St. Matthew 22.32 I am the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.

St. John 11.23 Jesus saith to her: Thy brother shall rise again.
24 Martha saith to him: I know that he shall rise again, in the resurrection at the last day.
25 Jesus said to her: I am the resurrection and the life: he that believeth in me, although he be dead, shall live:
26 And every one that liveth and believeth in me shall not die for ever. Believest thou this?
27 She saith to him: Yea, Lord, I have believed that thou art Christ, the Son of the living God, who art come into this world.

A Christian falls asleep in the Lord. Pagans and heretics and the like die the death, as will you, since it is so earnestly your wish. God will not deny you what you want.

Blessed Mary lives and reigns forever with Christ and the Apostles and Martyrs and Saints.

And of the elect, he was one indeed, the wonderful martyr Polycarp, who in our days was an apostolic and prophetic teacher, bishop of the Catholic Church in Smyrna. ... Now with the Apostles and all the just he is glorifying God and the Father Almighty, and he is blessing Our Lord Jesus Christ, the Savior of our souls, the Helmsman of our bodies, and the Shepherd of the Catholic Church throughout the world. (Martyrdom of St. Polycarp, 16.2, 19.1, AD 155/157)

332 posted on 09/30/2003 9:57:03 PM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: Hermann the Cherusker
Aaiiiggghhh! Blasphemy! Disgusting, craven Nestorian heresy! Is this what you truely believe, each and every one of you?
It was not the sinless man Jesus who saved us, but the Son of God in the flesh. No one but the Son of God could make a perfect sacrifice to God the Father. If a perfect man (or woman) could save us, than every aborted child is a savior!

The atonement was a sinless man taking on the sin of men , if the man had any sin he would have been dying for his own sin . and taking the punishment we deserve..so if his mother was sinless we could have cut out the middle man and hung her for the sins of man

You may not like that but that is where your doctrine takes us

It was the Son of God incarnate , the son of man , the second Adam (man ) that saved us .

Btw your comment about aborted babies being sinless is against your churches of original ..do you want me to explain it to you?

333 posted on 09/30/2003 10:00:14 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: Havoc; Tantumergo
Christ didn't die to save your body, he died to save your soul. Pay attention in class. Paul said flesh and blood will not inherit the kingdom.

I'm sorry. I mistook you for some sort of Christian. I see here that you deny the resurrection of the body. Apparently you are some sort of Manichean or dualist???

334 posted on 09/30/2003 10:02:15 PM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: Hermann the Cherusker
The Son of God, being one of the Holy Trinity, was able to save souls prior to His incarnation as Jesus the Christ. You know, men like Abraham, Daniel, Noah, etc.

The Bible says they were saved by faith in the promise

By your reckoning God could have bypassed the atonement and just made all men born sinless again

335 posted on 09/30/2003 10:02:23 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: narses

The living saints in heaven, the Church Triumphant, have NO ROLE? What authority have you for such a claim? 

NIV John 11:11-27
 11.  After he had said this, he went on to tell them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep (died) ; but I am going there to wake him up."
 12.  His disciples replied, "Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better."
 13.  Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep.
 14.  So then he told them plainly, "Lazarus is dead,
 15.  and for your sake I am glad I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him."
 16.  Then Thomas (called Didymus) said to the rest of the disciples, "Let us also go, that we may die with him."
 17.  On his arrival, Jesus found that Lazarus had already been in the tomb for four days.
 18.  Bethany was less than two miles  from Jerusalem,
 19.  and many Jews had come to Martha and Mary to comfort them in the loss of their brother.
 20.  When Martha heard that Jesus was coming, she went out to meet him, but Mary stayed at home.
 21.  "Lord," Martha said to Jesus, "if you had been here, my brother would not have died.
 22.  But I know that even now God will give you whatever you ask."
 23.  Jesus said to her, "Your brother will rise again."
 24.  Martha answered, "I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."
 25.  Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies;
 26.  and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"
 27.  "Yes, Lord," she told him, "I believe that you are the Christ,  the Son of God, who was to come into the world."
Jesus did NOT say that Martha's statement was wrong.

 

NIV Acts 7:8, 59-60
  8.  Now Stephen, a man full of God's grace and power, did great wonders and miraculous signs among the people.

59.  While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit."
 60.  Then he fell on his knees and cried out, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them." When he had said this, he fell asleep (died) .

 

NIV Acts 13:36
 36.  "For when David had served God's purpose in his own generation, he fell asleep (died) ; he was buried with his fathers and his body decayed. (A man after God's own heart)

 

NIV 1 Corinthians 11:30
 30.  That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep (died) .

 

NIV 1 Corinthians 15:6
 6.  After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep (died) .

 

NIV 1 Corinthians 15:20-23
 20.  But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep (died) .
 21.  For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man.
 22.  For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
 23.  But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

 

NIV 1 Corinthians 15:51-52
 51.  Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed--
 52.  in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

 

NIV Ephesians 5:13-14
 13.  But everything exposed by the light becomes visible,
 14.  for it is light that makes everything visible. This is why it is said: "Wake up, O sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you."

 

NIV 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
 13.  Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep (die) , or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope.
 14.  We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep (died) in him.
 15.  According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep (died) .
 16.  For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 
 17.  After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
 18.  Therefore encourage each other with these words.

(All these verses speak of the dead as SLEEPING.  And, at the SECOND Coming, THEN they will join Jesus: not before)

 


336 posted on 09/30/2003 10:09:06 PM PDT by Elsie (Don't believe every prophecy you hear: especially *** ones........)
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To: drstevej
Sometimes men in authority do things in ways we think are wrong. But you are judging looking over his shoulder and with 20/20 hindsight. You are not there at his desk and in his shoes.

I'm sure with the outcome he now has, he would do it again differently if given the opportunity.

But don't be so high and mighty when you have not ever been a given the torture of being a Bishop.

"God forbid you ever had to walk a mile in my shoes."




St. John Chrysostom, Homilies on the Acts of the Apostles, Homily 3.

Let us then also imitate them. And now I address no longer every one, but those who aim at preferment. If thou believest that the election is with God, be not displeased. (Mark x. 14, 21; xiv. 4.) For it is with Him thou art displeased, and with Him thou art exasperated: it is He who has made the choice; thou doest the very thing that Cain did; because, forsooth, his brother's, sacrifice was preferred, he was indignant, when he ought to have felt compunction. However, that is not what I mean here; but this, that God knows how to dispense things for the best. In many cases, thou art in point of disposition more estimable than the other but not the fit person. Besides, on the other hand, thy life is irreproachable, and thy habits those of a well-nurtured man, but in the Church this is not all that is wanted. Moreover, one man is adapted for one thing, another for another. Do you not observe, how much discourse the holy Scripture has made on this matter? But let me say why it is that the thing has become a subject of competition: it is because we come to the Episcopate not as unto a work of governing and superintending the brethren, but as to a post of dignity and repose. Did you but know that a Bishop is bound to belong to all, to bear the burden of all; that others, if they are angry, are pardoned, but he never; that others, if they sin, have excuses made for them, he has none; you would not be eager for the dignity, would not run after it. So it is, the Bishop is exposed to the tongues of all, to the criticism of all, whether they be wise or fools. He is harassed with cares every day, nay, every night. He has many to hate him, many to envy him. Talk not to me of those who curry favor with all, of those who desire to sleep, of those who advance to this office as for repose. We have nothing to do with these; we speak of those who watch for your souls, who consider the safety and welfare of those under them before their own. Tell me now: suppose a man has ten children, always living with him, and constantly under his control; yet is he solicitous about them; and a bishop, who has such numbers, not living under the same roof with him, but owing obedience to his authority--what does he not need to be! But he is honored, you will say. With what sort of honor, indeed! Why, the paupers and beggars abuse him openly in the market-place. And why does he not stop their mouths then? Yes, very proper work, this, for a bishop, is it not? Then again, if he do not give to all, the idle and the industrious alike, lo! a thousand complaints on all sides. None is afraid to accuse him, and speak evil of him. In the case of civil governors, fear steps in; with bishops, nothing of the kind. As for the fear of God, it does not influence people, as regards them, in the least degree. Why speak of the anxiety connected with the word and doctrine? the painful work in Ordinations? Either, perhaps, I am a poor wretched incompetent creature, or else, the case is as I say. The soul of a Bishop is for all the world like a vessel in a storm: lashed from every side, by friends, by foes, by one's own people, by strangers. Does not the Emperor rule the whole world, the Bishop a single city? Yet a Bishop's anxieties are as much beyond those of the emperor, as the waters of a river simply moved, by the wind are surpassed in agitation by the swelling and raging sea. And why? because in the one case there are many to lend a hand, for all goes on by law and by rule; but in the other there is none of this, nor is there authority to command; but if one be greatly moved, then he is harsh; if the contrary, then he is cold! And in him these opposites must meet, that he may neither be despised, nor be hated. Besides, the very demands of business preoccupy him: how many is he obliged to offend, whether he will or not! How many to be severe with! I speak not otherwise than it is, but as

I find it in my own actual experience. I do not think there are many among Bishops that will be saved, but many more that perish: and the reason is, that it is an affair that requires a great mind. Many are the exigencies which throw a man out of his natural temper; and he had need have a thousand eyes on all sides. Do you not see what a number of qualifications the Bishop must have? to be apt to teach, patient, holding fast the faithful word in doctrine (see 1 Tim. iii. 2--9. Tit. i. 7--9). What trouble and pains does this require! And then, others do wrong, and he bears all the blame. To pass over every thing else: if one soul depart un-baptized, does not this subvert all his own prospect of salvation? The loss of one soul carries with it a penalty which no language can represent. For if the salvation of that soul was of such value, that the Son of God became man, and suffered so much, think how sore a punishment must the losing of it bring! And if in this present life he who is cause of an- other's destruction is worthy of death, much more in the next world. Do not tell me, that the presbyter is in fault, or the deacon. The guilt of all these comes perforce upon the head of those who ordained them. Let me mention another instance. It chances, that a bishop has inherited from his predecessor a set of persons of indifferent character. What measures is it proper to take in respect of bygone transgressions (for here are two precipices) so as not to let the offender go unpunished, and not to cause scandal to the rest? Must one's first step be to cut him off? There is no actual present ground for that. But is it right to let him go unmarked? Yes, say you; for the fault rests with the bishop Who ordained him. Well then? must one refuse to ordain him again, and to raise him to a higher degree of the ministry? That would be to publish it to all men, that he is a person of indifferent character, and so again one would cause scandal in a different way. But is one to promote him to a higher degree? That is much worse.

If then there were only the responsibility of the office itself for people to run after in the episcopate, none would be so quick to accept it. But as things go, we run after this, just as we do after the dignities of the world. That we may have glory with men, we lose ourselves with God. What profit in such honor? How self-evident its nothingness is! When you covet the episcopal rank, put in the other scale, the account to be rendered after this life.

Weigh against it, the happiness of a life free from toil, take into account the different measure of the punishment. I mean, that even if you have sinned, but in your own person merely, you will have no such great punishment, nothing like it: but if you have sinned as bishop, you are lost. Remember what Moses endured, what wisdom he displayed, what good deeds he exhibited: but, for committing one sin only, he was bitterly punished; and with good reason; for this fault was attended with injury to the rest. Not m regard that the sin was public, but because it was the sin of a spiritual Ruler (ierews) cf. S.); for in truth we do not pay the same penalty for public and for hidden faults. (Aug in Ps. xcix. 6.) The sin may be the same, but not the (zhmia) harm of it; nay, not the sin itself; for it is not the same thing to sin in secret and unseen, and to sin openly.

But the bishop cannot sin unobserved. Well for him if he escape reproach, though he sin not; much less can he think to escape notice, if he do sin. Let him be angry, let him laugh, or let him but dream of a moment's relaxation, many are they that scoff, many that are offended, many that lay down the law, many that bring to mind he former bishops, and abuse the, present one; not that they wish to sound the praise of those; no, it is only to carp at him that they bring up the mention of fellow-bishops, of presbyters. Sweet, says the proverb, is war to the inexperienced; but it may rather be said now, that even after one has come out of it, people in general have seen nothing of it: for in their eyes it is not war, but like those shepherds in Ezekiel, we slay and devour. (Ezek. xxxiv. 2.) Which of us has it in his power to show that he has taken as much care for the flocks of Christ, as Jacob did for Laban's? (Gen. xxxi. 40.) Which of us can tell of the frost of the night? For talk not to me of vigils, and all that parade. The contrary plainly is the fact. Prefects, and governors (unarkoi kai tonarkai) Of provinces, do not enjoy such honour as he that governs the Church. If he enter the palace, who but he is first? If he go to see ladies, or visit the houses of the great, none is preferred to him. The whole state of things is ruined and corrupt. I do not speak thus as wishing to put us bishops to shame, but to repress your hankering after the office. For with what conscience, (even should you succeed in becoming a bishop, having made interest for it either in person or by another), with what eyes will you look the man in the face who worked with you to that end? What will you have to plead for your excuse? For he that unwillingly, by compulsion and not with his own consent, was raised to the office, may have something to say for himself, though for the most part even such an one has no pardon to expect, and yet truly he so far has something to plead in excuse.
337 posted on 09/30/2003 10:12:21 PM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: malakhi; Elsie
Respect has nothing to do with it. You deny that Jesus built a Church that all are called to belong to and therefore you are a heretic. At least I am trying to be accurate in my descriptions, whereas you have nothing but caustic sarcasm to hurl at those you don't wish to hear.
338 posted on 09/30/2003 10:17:13 PM PDT by Fifthmark
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To: Hermann the Cherusker
The fruit of Catholicism - billions of souls in heaven, a worldwide network of charitable institutions and houses of education, the preservation of learning through the ages, etc.

And not one bit of it saves

The fruit of Catholicism - billions of souls in heaven, a worldwide network of charitable institutions and houses of education, the preservation of learning through the ages, etc.

You need to study a bit Herman

Calvin sought to improve the life of the 17th Century French citizens in many ways. He supported good hospitals, a proper sewage system, protective rails on upper stories to keep children from falling from tall buildings, special care for the poor and infirm, and the introduction of new industries.

You must be desperate Herman ..no arguments on topic, only Ad hominem attacks   

339 posted on 09/30/2003 10:18:23 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: Hermann the Cherusker
20. It has always been my ambition to preach the gospel where Christ was not known, so that I would not be building on someone else's foundation. (rats!! What about 'tradition?!?!?)
2 Thessalonians 2.14 Therefore, brethren, stand fast: and hold the traditions, which you have learned, whether by word or by our epistle.

Now what Tradition did he hold? Confession? mass? prayer to saints ,rosaries

So what "traditions do you think?? May be offering dead lambs ?

340 posted on 09/30/2003 10:25:03 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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