"Thou art a wimp forever" - bishops meeting

Touchstone Magazine - mere comments ^ | September 9, 2003 | Leon Podles

[american colleen]

THOU ART A WIMP FOREVER:

I went to the meeting with the bishops that Deal Hudson and Russell Shaw arranged. I did not expect much, and I was not disappointed.

The bishops were told 1. that they had to be more direct in dealing with dissenting Catholics, and 2. that they should at the least stop appointing notorious pro-abortion politicians to prominent committees (Leon Panetta at the national Review Board).

The response to 1 : we are family, doing anything might make matters worse and only help pro-abortion politicians

The response to 2 : if his bishop vouches for the orthodoxy of any member of his flock, no other bishop will ever question that decision.

We were asked not to quote people, so I will quote myself:

“We all know that bishops were chosen by the Vatican because they are diplomatic, unifiers, team players, collegial. These are good qualities. However these qualities also lead to a reluctance to confront evil, even when confrontation is necessary. This reluctance led to the scandals. When people who knew the bishop responsible were asked how the bishop could ever let such a thing go on, they invariably replied, 'He hates confrontation more than anything.'

"Bishops have to be willing to go against their personalities and confront evil. We are in a battle, we are losing it. The more Catholic a state (or Canadian province), the more pro-abortion the politicians. Catholic societies have the lowest birth rates in the world. The policy of accommodation of the past 30 years has not worked. Confrontation may not work either, but we have to try it, and at least go down fighting.”

This was the message which almost all the participants gave to the bishops, with various degrees of tact.

But, as was obvious, nothing will change.

Hostility (see Mark Shea’s blog) is generally reserved for those who complain about outrageous goings–on, not the people who perpetrate the outrages. A bad conscience hurts.

Bishop Wilton Gregory, President of the USCCB Theodore Cardinal McCarrick of Washington, D.C. Bishop William Friend of Shreveport, LA Msgr. William Fay, USCCB General Secretary Msgr. Francis Maniscalco, USCCB Communications Director Kathleen McChesney, director of the USCCB’s Office of Child and Youth Protection Raymond Arroyo, EWTN News Director Pat Cipollone, Kirkland & Ellis partner William Donohue, President of the Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights Greg Erlandson, Publisher of Our Sunday Visitor Elizabeth Fox-Genovese, Professor of History at Emory University Dr. Robert George, Professor of Politics at Princeton University Frank Hanna, III, CEO of HBR Capital, Ltd. Barbara Henkels, Board Member of the Catholic Leadership Conference Paul Henkels, CEO of Henkels & McCoy, Inc. Tom Hoopes, Executive Editor of National Catholic Register Mother Assumpta Long, Dominican Sisters of Mary, Mother of the Eucharist Peggy Noonan, commentator and columnist for the Wall Street Journal Robert Novak, commentator with CNN Kate O’Beirne, Senior Editor of National Review Fr. David O’Connell, President of the Catholic University of America Timothy O’Donnell, President of Christendom College Russell Shaw, co-host of the meeting, writer and editor Gene Zurlo, President of the Catholic Radio Association Denis Coleman, Ambassador for the American Consulate in Bermuda Bernard Dobranski, Dean of Ave Maria School of Law Jeffrey Wallin, President of the American Academy for Liberal Education William Plunkett, Jr., Plunkett & Jaffe partner Leon Suprenant, President of Catholics United for the Faith Sister Joseph Andrew, Dominican Sisters of Mary, Mother of the Eucharist Patrick Madrid, Publisher of Envoy Magazine Father Richard Gill, L.C., Director of Our Lady of Bethesda Retreat Center Gregory Popcak, Director of the Pastoral Solutions Institute Dr. Thomas Dillon, President of Thomas Aquinas College Lt. Gov. Michael Steele, Office of Lt. Governor for the state of Maryland Fr. Terence Henry, President of Franciscan University Fr. Frank Pavone, Priests for Life Carol McKinley, Faithful Voice Rep. Michael Ferguson, U.S. House of Congress Mark Ryland, Vice-President of the Discovery Institute Kathryn Jean Lopez, Associate Editor of National Review John Klink, former Diplomat of the Holy See to the UN Leon Podles, Senior Editor of Touchstone Magazine Cortes DeRussy, former President of Federated Capital Corporation Brian Saint-Paul, Editor of CRISIS Magazine

—Leon Podles 4:33 PM

[karen999]

KNEW there was a silver lining somewhere!!!

[ultima ratio]

Judging from the piece it's an accurate enough description. Seems like a counterfeit Catholicism to me. Funny, you think I'M low for posting this--and not a word from you about the bishop presiding over this travesty.

[Land of the Irish]

He is not totally liberal. At least there were no dancing bikerettes.

But there was the "blessing of the hogs":

Other pics:

[ultima ratio]

"Where you are getting that the missal reflects Lutheranism, I have no idea."

Of course you have no idea--your posts show it. All you've done so far is throw around uninformed accusations and make snide remarks. I suggest you do some background reading on the liturgy first, then fling your barbs--when you're a little better informed.

[sinkspur]

One more example would be our own resident married clergy proponent. Though he is as adament in his position as are tradtionalists in theirs, I can't recall him villifying the pope or calling anyone a fool for disagreeing, or abandoning the church for one that agrees with him on that point. And though I have not observed any one being persuaded by his common sense arguments, in fact he is nearly unanimously opposed, he still enjoys the respect and comraderie of most everyone that engages him.

That's about the nicest compliment ever paid me (I assume you're talking about me) on this forum.

I love the Catholic Caucus, and its members. Even ole Ultima Ratio and I agree on George W. Bush.

It's very Christ-like of everyone here to have disagreements, but to not abandon each other.

[karen999]

"Where you are getting that the missal reflects Lutheranism, I have no idea."

"Of course you have no idea--your posts show it. All you've done so far is throw around uninformed accusations and make snide remarks. I suggest you do some
background reading on the liturgy first, then fling your barbs--when you're a little better informed."

Translation: "I can't prove it to you because I have
no idea what the Novus Ordo actually says...and if I
HAVE read it, I haven't the guts to point out where it
says "This is only a commemoration...." because such a
passage is non-existant."

You've claimed the Novus Ordo DOES NOT reflect a "re-
presentation" of the SAME sacrific at Calvary. PROVE
IT through quotation OF the Novus Ordo, rather than
just prattle it.

[karen999]

" Judging from the piece it's an accurate enough description. Seems like a counterfeit Catholicism to me.
Funny, you think I'M low for posting this--and not a word from you about the bishop presiding over this
travesty. "

Judging from the post, a detached observer could NOT say
"counterfeit Catholicism." I seriously doubt "grape
juice" was used, as that is not a norm for mass. I expect
the "reporter" was about as accurate as a two-dollar
watch. Bishops and priests take THOSE sorts of things
very seriously about what is consecrated, as they do not
care for their bishop's boot to give them a kick in the
behind. And bishops do not usually like to get sent out
to the remotest part of Siberia, as a general rule of
thumb either.

[ultima ratio]

Since you are so ignorant of the facts, let me clue you in. The Novus Ordo was concocted in a conscious effort to attract Protestants--Lutherans, in particular. There are parts which not only resemble the Lutheran Lord's Supper worship service, but actually use the very same language and rubrics. Like Luther, moreover, Bugnini chose to emphasize the commemorative meal aspect of the Liturgy, rather than propitiatory sacrifice (he includes in passing a "sacrifice of praise"--but this is NOT propitiatory as Trent demands)--and this is exactly as Luther had done five hundred years ago when HE dumped the old missal in favor of a new one. Like Luther Bugnini also begins his liturgy by tossing out the Offertory. In this case he has replaced it with a before-meal Jewish blessing, the Berakoth. All of which is contrary to the Council of Trent which proscribed emphasizing the meal aspect of the Mass at the expense of propitiatory sacrifice. Still worse, the Mass is undergirded by a Protestant Paschal Meal theology and distinctly suppresses central Catholic dogmas--that of the Real Presence and that of Propitiation. By doing so it has destroyed the ancient sacrificial structure of the Mass.But this is only the half of it. Like the Lutheran worship service, the New Mass is centered on the congregation primarily. The priest now faces the people and the emphasis is now placed on Christ's virtual presence in Scripture and in the assembly, rather than on His Real Presence on the altar in Transubstantiation. In fact, the altar itself has become merely a table and the climax of the Mass is now Communion, rather than Transubstantiation. All of which is not very Catholic.

--Any questions?

[ultima ratio]

Look, for a year now I've been through all this. You are new here--so I suggest you ask around and do some reading and catching up. It's not for me to educate you. You are clearly fixing for a fight--but evidently have little background by which to wage it.

[St.Chuck]

What unmitigated nonsense you post.

Thank you for proving my point.

[karen999]

:-D Interesting pics. Of course it will frost ultimo et
al to know that even the LATIN RITUAL permitted for the
blessing of motor vehicles etc. Based on that EThiopian
in the chariot, no less in the NT. The blessing goes
to the owner/users of the vehicle. re: the middle pic,
I guess ultimo et al haven't seen "world youth day" where
some kid presents the pope with a soccer shirt or a funny
hat or the like. Re: the last pic....though the guy
is "relaxing" on his hog.....it looks like before or after
the mass because the other people in the background are
clearly chatting away, not even facing the same direction.
I expect the guy on the bike is simply looking at the
hand out that was given at the mass which commemorate
the event after the fact. can't say motor bikes are
a "thing" for me...but I'd have to see some SERIOUS evidence
that some "norm" of the mass as re: the canon et al were
violated. Some jackass claiming that invalid food items
were consecrated doesn't cut it for me.

Personally, I've noticed over the years when father
occasionally gets asked to bless a car in the parking lot
after mass by someone...he always ends up doing SEVERAL.
:-D

[sinkspur]

Under no circumstances take Ultima Ratio seriously, except when he's defending the President.

UR belongs to a sect whose leadership has been excommunicated. He'll deny that, but it's true.

And, he'll tell you that, by attending a Novus Ordo Mass, you're attending something bastardized, less than holy, less than good for your soul.

It's goofy, but, that's our UR.

You're new, but don't let him intimidate you. He's really harmless, and clueless.

[ultima ratio]

The only point you prove is you haven't a clue about the real nature of progressivism.

[Land of the Irish]

In fact, the altar itself has become merely a table...

Like this??

[ultima ratio]

What sect do I "belong to"? We attend SSPX Masses. How is this belonging to a sect? You are being dishonest.

[karen999]

" [a bunch of stuff re: how the offeratory was allegedly
done away with] "

Sorry ultima....offeratory is still there....

"The priest now faces the people and the emphasis is now
placed on Christ's virtual presence in Scripture and in the assembly, rather than on His Real
Presence on the altar in Transubstantiation. In fact, the altar itself has become merely a table and the
climax of the Mass is now Communion, rather than Transubstantiation. All of which is not very
Catholic. "

[News to me]
so much wrong here...don't know where to start.

#1 as for the priest now facing the people:
too bad the popes didn't have your wisdom
and didn't know HOW IMPORTANT it is to face away from the people....if they'd only listened to you the popes
wouldn't have faced the people in St. Peter's FOR CENTURIES
before the Novus Ordo....

And I'm SURE that if Jesus had your advice He wouldn't have faced the apostles at the Last Supper, either. Well,
even Jesus couldn't have all His earthly desires met...
[see that pesky fig tree] [the REAL mystery is why you
are sweating small potatoes such as which way the
priest faces.]
I'm sure if you'd been there as master of ceremonies
at the Last Supper they wouldn't have all been "reclining"
at table. He wouldn't have made that mistake. How
interesting....almost 2000 years ago "the Twelve" reclined
at table...and that guy on the motorcycle "reclined"
on his bike...I wouldn't personally do that...but when
you look at it that way, "relaxing" at the table of the
Lord has apparently been done before. [Think of the
possiblities....Jesus could have kicked that kickstand
right out from under Judas before he could have roared
off to betray him...]

BTW, it may surprise you to know this but Christ IS present
in the scripture AND the congregation AND the tran-
substantiation AND in the communicants....don't know what
your personal theology is, but it's strayed from listening
to the pope. Of course he is PHYSICALLY present in the
Eucharist is a most special, personal way.

H'mmm let see Matthew 16: "upon this rock I build my
church" "gates of hell not prevail against it" elsewhere
He said "whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven
whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."
That was said to Peter, and passed on through a chain
of authority...so either I have to call Jesus a liar, and
believe that the pope in concert with the magisterium
teaches incorrectly...or I can believe you and your sect
buddies. My money is on the pope teaching correctly,
not you.

BTW, re: the consecration, if you ever actually ATTENDED
a Novus Ordo mass in the last almost 40 years you'd know
that the consecration IS still the "highlight" -- but
you'd also catch a clue that the point of Christ offering
His sacrific for us was so that we WOULD "take, eat."
the point of doing a consecration IS precisely so that
the people would receive it as commanded in John 6.
"Unless you eat My flesh and drink My blood you have no
life within you." Your "lutheran" protestations to
the contrary.

As for your follow on post, saying I am "new here" and
should sit back and learn from you cultists...I AM "new
here" but I've seen your sort before and have heard all
the phoney baloney "arguments" about how the Novus Ordo
is invalid. Forget it. You ain't getting any more con-
verts to your sect. If you're willing to kiss the pope's
ring however, I'm sure he'll more than welcome you back
into the fold.

[St.Chuck]

The only point you prove is you haven't a clue about the real nature of progressivism.

I'm looking forward to your encyclical on progressivism.

[karen999]

"I love the Catholic Caucus, and its members. Even ole Ultima Ratio and I agree on George W. Bush."

Make that 3 of us...

[ultima ratio]

I will only deal with one of your points because it is late and because you simply don't know what you're talking about. Here is Cardinal Ratzinger on the issue of facing the people.

"Today celebration versus populum really does look like the characteristic fruit of Vatican II's liturgical renewal. In fact, it is the most conspicuous consequence of a reordering that not only signifies a new external arrangement of the places dedicated to the liturgy, but also brings with it a new idea of the essence of the liturgy--the liturgy as a communal meal...A common turning to the east during the Eucharistic Prayer remains essential. This is not a case of something accidental, but of what is essential. Looking at the priest has no importance. What matters is looking together at the Lord. It is not now a question of dialogue but of common worship." (Interview in La Croix, Dec. 21, 2001.)

Here is what he has said in general about the Novus Ordo: "It is only by grasping that it results from the practical disqualification of Trent, that one can understand the exasperation that accompanies the fight against the possibility of still celebrating the Mass according to the 1962 missal." THE PRACTICAL DISQUALIFICATION OF TRENT. Those words can't be repeated often enough.

[rogator]

"...have heard all
the phoney baloney "arguments" about how the Novus Ordo
is invalid."

I could be wrong, but, I don't recall U.R. or anyone else on this board ever saying that the N.O. Mass is invalid.

I sure hope it isn't because I attend it every Sunday.

What I have heard is folks saying it is frequently said irreverently and/or illicitly and SOMETIMES invalidly and I have personally witnessed all of the above.