Arminianism -- False Doctrines of the "Pope" of Modern Pelagianism

Response to: Calvinism- False Doctrines of the "Pope" of Geneva ^ | August 13, 2003 | OP

[connectthedots]

2 weeks ago I meet a Methodist minister who confessed that he is moving towards TULIP.

I know at least 75 people who were once members of a CRC who left for more evengelical churches that were more Arminian in viewpoint than Calvinistic. One older gentleman put it this way, "I was raised CRC, but then thank God I got saved." His point was that prior to about age 45, he had never heard a salvation message is any of the CRCs he faithfully attended for so many years. He heard lots of messages on Calvinism to be sure, but the knowledge of Calvinism has not saved a single soul.

[drstevej]

Your whole question presupposes a temporal order with regeneration prior in time to faith. Demonstrate your premise biblically then we can discuss it.

If you can not demonstrate your premise biblically, your point is irrelevant.

[CCWoody]

The last the Zenmeister and I talked, he was also a believer in the Penal Substituation Atonement.

Woody.

[P-Marlowe]

It's all a part of something called "The New Covenant." Opens the door for we unclean non-Jews

A Covenant is a contract. One party does his part and the other party does their part. In this case Man repents and believes and God regenerates and forgives. The condition precedent to God's act of regeneration is the requirement that man must first repent and believe.

Since man is seperated from God by sin and since God, being holy, cannot tolerate or accept sin in his presence, then it would be impossible for man to enter into God's presence or to have fellowship with God unless and until his sins have been forgiven. Forgiveness comes only after repentance and thus the indwelling of the Holy Spirit cannot occur until God has first sanctified his temple. Regeneration occurs when God indwells us. Since God cannot indwell us while we are sinners, we must first repent and believe before the transformation can occur.

Calvinism assumes that it is possible for God to indwell a sinner who has not yet repented. Calvinism thus makes the cross irrelevant.

[drstevej]

***Calvinism assumes that it is possible for God to indwell a sinner who has not yet repented. ***

Baloney. Still waiting your scripture, counselor!

[CARepubGal]

Being a 100% celibate group does have its disadvantages. Nice furniture while they lasted though. :-)

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Thanks for the kind words. But for myself, any "grace" I might exhibit is hindered by my spotty historical knowledge, which thankfully is in glorious surplus in OP and others.

I'm still in the embryonic feelings stage of faith, whereby I've been stunned and humbled and forced to my knees by the cataclysmic realization that it really is all of God.

Once you cast aside the notion of independent "free will," all that's left is God, everywhere and forever.

The awareness that God directs the show entirely as He wills seems to me to be the true starting point for any spiritual growth.

All the rest is epilogue.

[Corin Stormhands]

Let me put it this way. You and some of your cohorts don't consider us Wesleyan-Arminians to be "believers." Your chart spells that out. That pretty much renders anything else you have to say to me irrelevant.

And that's why I won't play your reindeer games anymore.

[xzins]

I put great store in husbands and wives doing a bit of snuggling.

You construct less furniture. But you get far more use out of the furniture you have.

:>)

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

So Xzins, are you now an Amyraldian? 171 posted on 08/16/2003 9:40 AM PDT by drstevej

Let us pray to God, and hope so. It would be an enormous improvement.

~~ (OP, the rigidly-unforgiving Presbyterian Absolutist who is far-too-tolerant of these presumptuous 4-Point Amyrauldians who dare to claim Calvin for themselves -- according to my reputation, I think I am supposed to be lighting you on fire about now)....

[xzins]

I, too, am saddened that many don't consider a believer to be a believer just because he also holds Arminian understandings.

I don't think ALL Arminians are Christian; nor do I think all Calvinists are Christian. The parable of the sower and the parable of the tares both testify to that.

[P-Marlowe]

If you can not demonstrate your premise biblically, your point is irrelevant.

Nice dodge. If YOU cannot demonstrate biblically how God can regenerate a man before he believes and repents, then Calvinism is irrelevant.

Is there a separation between God and man because of sin? Is not repentance a pre-requisite for forgiveness? How then can a man be regenerated while he is yet a sinner? Is he forgiven before he repents? Scripture please.

[xzins]

See #174.

I believe that there is a problem with traditional understandings of both calvinism and arminianism. DrSteveJ's airplane explanation is a great example, and if it's an example of amyraldianism, then that gives the amyr's a leg up, imho.

[CARepubGal]

LOLOL! How true. And isolation from the world may make nice furniture but it does not do much to spread the Word of God does it? ;-)

[P-Marlowe]

Baloney.

At what point does God indwell a person? After they believe? If so, then what is regeneration? Scripture please.

Do we become a new creation in Christ before we believe or after we believe? Does God indwell us before we believe or after we believe? Scripture please.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

Let me put it this way. You and some of your cohorts don't consider us Wesleyan-Arminians to be "believers." Your chart spells that out. That pretty much renders anything else you have to say to me irrelevant. And that's why I won't play your reindeer games anymore.

If you subscribed to DouglasKC's version of "Binitarianism", I'd call your beliefs a Heresy also, and urge you to Repent them. Nothing Personal -- just Truth and Charity.

Rather than simply admit that Arminianism is, in fact, HERETIKOS -- the false doctrine of "Human ability to choose", as defined by the Ancient Christian Church -- you prefer to pretend that this is personal (even though we both know, it's not).

In short, you'd rather falsely and unchristianly accuse me of attacking you personally (which I have not done), than dare to confront the HERETIKOS nature of Arminianism as defined by the Greek Terminology of the Early Christian Church.

That's why you won't play Reindeer Games, anymore.

[lockeliberty]

I am toying with the idea of "specified intervention" in which God HAS ALREADY PLANNED where to intervene. I don't know anyone else writing on that subject. Do you?

Here's a chart of the of the differing systems and their beliefs about God's knowledge and free-will. I'm not certain he got all the categories correct. If you read the sermon he basically posits what you are thinking. As usual, the resulting outcomes depend mainly upon if one presupposes a libertarian or a volitional free-will. I see a lot of holes in his theory.

[CCWoody]

Not completely there yet. Of course, she does confess that being born of God comes first just like the Bible exactly tells us. She actually had this confession before I did. LOL!

I also have the leader of the other usher team on the verge of a 5-Point confession. You see, I'm going for the leaders first.

Woody.

[drstevej]

What is it about the word simultaneous that is so complicated for you?

Logical order
Logical order
Logical order
Logical order
Logical order
Logical order

Before AND After miss the point.

[CCWoody]

2 weeks ago I meet a Methodist minister who confessed that he is moving towards TULIP. ~ Gamecock

It almost sounds as if the Lord introducing we Calvinists as a kind of anti-virus to help stamp out the horrible liberalism within the Methodist church.

Woody.