Marlowe: "I think that there is substantial biblical evidence to back up my thesis. First of all, do you doubt that God exists outside the parameters of time itself?"
Jean Chauvin: No doubts. God is not subject to anything except his own nature.
Then the Conclusion that must be drawn is that God CAN exist outside any parameter of the physical universe, including time. This then is not the same as asking whether God CAN make a rock so big that he cannot move it, since that would be a nonsensical proposition as well as a physical impossibility.
Marlowe: "Is God limited by time?" Jean Chauvin: Nope.
You fail to see the implications of your answer. I trust that you answer is honest, but if, in fact, God is not limited by the dimension of time, then he must in fact exist in all times as well as in all places. His presence encompasses all of the physical universe and his presence encompasses all of the properties of the physical universe including time. Obviously you believe that his power extends to controlling both the present and the future, but why would you limit his ability to control the past? Similarly if his presence covers the present and the future, then why would you preclude or limit his existence in the past.? To do so is to deny his infinite omnipresence. Marlowe: "If God is indeed omnipresent, does he not exist in the past, present and future simultaneously?" Jean Chauvin: God is indeed omnipresent. However, to suggest that means he exists in the "past, present and future simultaneously" is pure Philosophical speculation. I have no idea how God exists in the "past present and future". Perhaps you could give me Scriptural evidence to support your claim?
"Before Abraham was, I AM." What does that mean to you? He didn’t say, before Abraham was, I was, too. He used the present tense, signifying that not only was he there, but that he is there.
Marlowe: "Or is he only present Now?" Jean Chauvin: Again, I have no idea, nor probably could I understand how God relates to time.
That’s because you’re not God. Nobody knows how God relates to anything except in the manner in which he has revealed it.
I think, though, that it is quite dangerous to speculate on this as you have done and then use such speculation in your hermeneutical approach as you have shown the desire to do.
A witch! Can we burn her?
Marlowe: "Does that not make a strong implication that God not only existed (past tense) before Abraham, but that he "exists" (present tense) before Abraham now?" Jean Chauvin: Again, this is pure speculation. I have no idea (and you really don't either) just how God relates to time. Your "exists before Abraham now" is self contradictory to our rational thinking. It is impossible for us to understand what "before Abraham now" means. This is simply a nonsensical sentence. To be blunt, I think you've pulled this speculative idea out of the same place you pulled the idea that since God "forgets" our sins that they never happened. Some people will do anything to deny the Biblical truth of Predestination!
I do not deny the Biblical Truth of Predestination. Indeed, I believe that because God exists outside of time, that everything is indeed predestined. But predestination is not at all incompatible with free will, since God knows exactly what is going to happen with that free will and if God knows something will occur, then it will occur exactly as God knows it will.
I will note with respect to your claim "I think that there is substantial biblical evidence to back up my thesis" that you have presented absolutely NONE of this "substantial" evidence to back your speculation. That is pretty telling, I think.
Here’s some scriptural evidence. The question is, are you willing to consider it? Or are you so tied to reformation ideas and Newtonian Physics, that you are incapable of viewing scriptures in light of Post Eisteinian discoveries regarding dimensions and time?
Does God Dwell In Time?
By Don Stewart
Time can be defined as the measurement of events that appear one after another. When God created the world He created time - He existed before the first event of creation. Therefore God dwells outside of time.
The Bible says that God is not limited to time. Scripture says that He is the one who inhabits eternity.
For thus says the high and lofty one who inhabits eternity, whose name is Holy (Isaiah 57:15).
While God inhabits eternity, He deals with His creation in time. This is another example of an antinomy – two truths that seemingly conflict. Consequently we can only approximate the truth when we speak of God living outside of time, yet interacting with His people in time. The Bible says.
For my thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways my ways, says the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts (Isaiah 55:8,9).
Time Is Relative To God
We find that time is merely relative to God. The Bible says.
But do not ignore this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like one day (2 Peter 3:8).
Although we cannot totally reconcile these statements, we believe them because God has revealed these truths to us.
God never had a beginning point and will never have an end. The Scriptures recognize that Jesus is the beginning and the end. At the beginning of the Book of Revelation we read.
"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty" (Revelation 1:8).
The same truth is restated at the end of Revelation.
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End (Revelation 22:13).
Isaiah wrote.
This is what the LORD says – Israel’s King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God (Isaiah 44:6).
Again Isaiah recorded God saying.
Listen to me, O Jacob, Israel, whom I have called: I am he; I am the first and I am the last. My own hand laid the foundations of the earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens; when I summon them, they all stand up together (Isaiah 48:12,13)
Time and space were part of God’s creation. He existed before there was such a thing as time. Consequently God dwells in eternity not in time. Because he dwells in eternity he sees both the beginning and the end. While God does not dwell in time, He interacts with His creation in time. Although humankind cannot completely comprehend how this is true, nevertheless this is the biblical teaching on the subject.
If it is truly God's desire that all men individually be saved, and it is true that God can interact within time free of the bondage of being set in static motion from within it as we are (unable to move any direction except forward and any speed except that which is constant), then why is the salvation of all men not accomplished?
Calvinists actually do understand what you're talking about. Most of us had these discussions in junior high.
And although you protest, your postulate is exactly like God creating a rock too big for Him to lift. So what? It's simply a word-game trying to get around God's authority.
The over-arching truth of all existence is that God, whether He inhabits past, present, future or a bunny suit, is aware of and omnipresent over every nano-second we live because it is ALL His creation, according to His will, as He determines because it pleasures Him and brings glory to His name.
You fail to see that all your posturings come down to you wanting to effect God's plan. You want Him to respond to you. It's an understandable mistake; Eve made it, too. And so you want the concept of time to bend to your will; to make time mallable in your hands so that God can actually change time and events according to your actions.
While time may well bend, it does so as God instructs. And that instruction has been known to God from before time.
Bottom line -- God knows your questions. He gave them to you. He watches as you struggle with them, and I pray He gives you insight.
Calvinists actually do understand what you're talking about. Most of us had these discussions in junior high.
And although you protest, your postulate is exactly like God creating a rock too big for Him to lift. So what? It's simply a word-game trying to get around God's authority.
The over-arching truth of all existence is that God, whether He inhabits past, present, future or a bunny suit, is aware of and omnipresent over every nano-second we live because it is ALL His creation, according to His will, as He determines because it pleasures Him and brings glory to His name.
You fail to see that all your posturings come down to you wanting to effect God's plan. You want Him to respond to you. It's an understandable mistake; Eve made it, too. And so you want the concept of time to bend to your will; to make time mallable in your hands so that God can actually change time and events according to your actions.
While time may well bend, it does so as God instructs. And that instruction has been known to God from before time.
Bottom line -- God knows your questions. He gave them to you. He watches as you struggle with them, and I pray He gives you insight.
But this passage does not say, "Before Abraham was I am now".
This passage is not attempting to give us understanding of just how God relates to our experience of Time. It is communicating God's Sovereignty.
You are attempting to utilize a passage in a way that it was never intended to be used. That is not crying "Witch Witch, burn her."
Now, I have a question for you.
Can that which is created (everything except God) exist without the continual proactive sustaining power of the Will of God?Jean