Posted on 07/17/2003 9:53:46 AM PDT by Frumanchu
Since we're doing movie quotes, I like one from "Joe Vs. the Volcano."
Joe Banks (adrift in the ocean): "God, thank you for my life. I forgot how big you were."
I didn't answer it because the answer is so obvious that I considered it rhetorical. So I won't answer it now either. :-)
I never said he didn't. So does "Krusty the Klown". Itchy and Scrathy cartoons, anybody? Popcorn and beer at my place....
That is a wonderful question. Please ping me if Marlowe replies.
I was not implying that God has attributes of being able to travel through time like an object. I was stating that since objects can travel backwards through time, God would necessarily have to exist in the past as well as the future. Otherwise objects could go into a dimension where God does not exist and such a dimension cannot exist.
You really are missing the points here Jean.
Do you doubt that God exists in all times and all places and all dimensions? Is there anywhere that God is not?
I knew you wouldn't mind.
"Stilgar? Do we have Worm-Sign?"
"Usul... We have Worm-Sign, the likes of which even God has never seen."
"ATOMICS!!!"
Now let's get serious, folks. Enough bloviating about the Arminians bloviating. One hyper-speculative, multi-dimensional bloviation's as good as another... hadn't we better Cut to the Chase? (Long Live... The Fighters!!)
At the End of the Day, the Arminians still want to believe that the Unregenerate Man will freely choose to Please God.
That's all that this hypothetical tachyonic college rap-session is about. So why are you Calvinists even entertaining this philosophical horse-puckey?
Let me put this as bluntly as I can:
I already laid this out for Marlowe two years ago:
All of the following Scriptures ARE TRUE --
And IF these Scriptures are true, then a natural Man, acting upon Free Will, will:
These verses SHUT THE DOOR on the idea that a natural Man will ever Will to do any God-pleasing action by FREE WILL. The natural Man never, ever Wants to perform any God-pleasing action; and so if he acts by God's permission, he never, ever Will perform any God-pleasing action.
When natural Men act by God's PERMISSION, they ONLY PERFORM GOD-OPPOSING ACTIONS. That is all they Want to do, so that is all that they ever Will to do.
This is an iron-clad Law of Scripture. Marlowe was then, as he is now, incapable of denying this Fact.
This is ALL, and ONLY, and ALWAYS, what the Arminian wishes to overthrow -- the fundamental fact that the Unregenerate Man will not choose God unless he is first regenerated.
That is the only thing that they are fighting about. Only the Subversion of the Monergistic Gospel of Jesus Christ. Everything else is pedantic Diversion.
Here, I shall prove it:
Of course, he cannot choose "True". The fundamental basis of the Arminian conception of Salvation is that the Fallen Man, while still Unregenerate, will sometimes choose Christ. Disguise it with "prevenient grace" and "free will" howsoever you please, this fundamental blasphemy is at the Core of their System: the Unregenerate Man is STILL IN CONTROL.
Let me repeat that -- the Core of Arminianism is the desire to affirm that the Unregenerate Man is STILL IN CONTROL.
This is the Lie of Eden.
This is Arminianism.
And ultimately... this is the root and feeding trough of All Satanism.
Salvation is by the Sovereign Choice of God Alone.
This is really STAR TREK speculation. "Backwards through time" is a false perspective that's relative to our position in the universe. But God has no position in the universe. He permeates all of it. To say God exists in the past in nonsense. There is no "past." It's a human word to describe a notion, a concept; it's not a "place" to be inhabited.
Time travel is all conjecture. It's pushed by the same atheists who want us to believe in space aliens.
But wormholes are for worms.
You misunderstand Reason.
Reasoning is a legitimate Devotional Form of Loving God, as is Fasting and Working.
"Logic" is in fact, a better approximation of the Greek "Logos" than the Anglo-Catholic translation "Word". As has become curiously typical for me, I find that I prefer the Greek Form to the Latin Form.
And why do I prefer the Greek Form? Because it is Logical and Biblical. In all passages of Scripture pertaining to the subject, the Spirit proceeds from the Father, and is sent by the Son.
Thus, as a Sola Scriptura Protestant, I believe that I am bound to accept the Greek Orthodox understanding of the Filioque: from the Father, through the Son.
However, I would caution the Greek Orthodox to understand... I have reached my position on the basis of deduction and logic from Scripture, in which I believe the Greek Orthodox to be correct.
Thus, I do not believe that Rationality ever contradicts the Logos, or that Reason is any impediment to Spirituality.
Rather, I would prefer to say this:
Thus I do not believe that Rationality ever contradicts the Logos, or that Reason is any impediment to Spirituality. I do believe, however, that the first order of business, in any question of Logic... is to define how far Logic can go.
I'm curious to see your answer. Another way to understand what I am getting at would be an obviously impossible hypothetical -it's really the same question put a different way:
If God -utilizing his "Free-Will"- decided he wanted to cease to exist and thus would not be "there" to interact with the "not God" (his creation) -what would happen to the "not God"?Would it cease to exist as well?
Or would the "not God" continue to exist in the absence of the creator for the rest of eternity?
Jean
Then you were not clear in your speculations.
"I was stating that since objects can travel backwards through time, God would necessarily have to exist in the past as well as the future."
This is still rank speculation. You really have no idea just what it means for God to follow the existance of the particle as it travels back into the past.
The particle itself still exists and is still aging even though it might travel into what is, from our perspective, the "past". In other words, the object doesn't reach a point where it becomes "negative" in it's age. If that particle had a stopwatch on him, the stop watch would continue to keep regular time and the particle would not notice any speeding up or slowing down of "time".
This is why your utilizing your naturalistic philosophical speculations as a hermeneutical tool is not wise at all.
You are really just guessing at all of this and using your best hunch as a way to keep your beloved "Free-Will" philosophical paradigm in tact.
"Do you doubt that God exists in all times and all places and all dimensions? Is there anywhere that God is not?"
I have no doubt that God exists or has existed in all times, places and dimensions, but neither I nor you know what that means. In fact, we cannot even begin to describe how an "timeless" Being relates to the time that it has created without the use of words bound in chronology or defined with words relating to "time". That is the nature we have being finite creatures bound to time.
Jean
Hmmm. Talk about pulling stuff out of your butt. You've set up a false premise. Indeed, you have set up the ultimate false premise. The answer is impossible because the premise is impossible.
However, if I grant your impossible premise, I can give you an impossible answer. If God chose at some point in time to not exist, then obviously that event would have occurred before the creation of the creation. Thus there never would have been any creation to cease to exist. There would be no "rest of eternity" because there would be no eternity at all. Nothing exists without God and God exists. Period. Any premise that would exclude the existence of God would be a false premise. Existence is impossible without God. "I AM" kinda says it all.
BTW what does this have to do with anything?
But God doesn't have that problem, does he?
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