New rules for taking communion issued

Chicago Sun-Times ^ | July 17, 2003 | CATHLEEN FALSANI

[tridentine]

While the changes might seem minor, the first revisions the Vatican has made to the mass since 1975 will affect every Roman Catholic who walks forward for communion.

Before they take the bread and wine, they'll have to bow, as a sign of reverence for the Eucharist, the bread and wine Roman Catholics believe becomes the actual body and blood of Christ during the mass.

Catholics also must be quieter during the mass, sitting meditatively in silence before it begins, after the homily, and after they receive communion instead of chatting with neighbors, or whispering to the kids.

[rogator]

Deacon Sinkspur

"It's always struck me as strange that the Church can have different matter, and that the matter in one Rite makes the Eucharist invalid in the other."

I believe you mean illicit not invalid.

[rogator]

"Does it matter what the flavor is, as long as it undergoes the change into the Body and Blood?"

Altar bread must be made from wheat to be valid. If its not valid matter, no change occurs.

[sinkspur]

Imagine the impact of the FSSP seminary had the ability to take in 50 men every year, and imagine the impact it would have if it ordained 30+ men to the priesthood every year.

Where would they go? Not every diocese has FSSP parishes, nor will they.

The FSSP should be the basis for a new Tridentine Rite.

[sinkspur]

How many great saints has it produced? What's that, exactly zero?

Uh, Mother Teresa (who will be canonized soon). Jose Escriva, founder of Opus Dei.

I never said the Church wouldn't have suffered either if it had kept the Tridentine. The difference is, the Tridentine is the Cipro to the Novus Ordo amoxicillin. You can't cure a life threatening infection with amoxicillin.

You just now said that the Church's ills can be cured with the Tridentine. It may have suffered the same fate as it has with the Tridentine, but the Tridentine's going to cure it? I'm confused.

If the Tridentine is so unwanted and unpopular, put it side by side in every Church and let the Holy Spirit decide.

No. It's not the normative Mass for the Latin Rite; the Novus Ordo is.

You're a prime candidate for a Tridentine Rite. You could worship as you wish, and those of us who prefer the Novus Ordo could worship the way we wish.

[rogator]

Deacon
"The Novus Ordo is much closer to the early celebration of Christ's Eucharist than Trent was.
And even Trent didn't "return to the past" after the Reformation."

I visited the rare book room of a library a number of years ago and was fortunate enough to see a 10th century Missal.
The Mass therein was virtually identical to the Tridentine but had been copied more than 500 years earlier.
How do you know that the Novus Ordo is much closer to the early celebration of Christ's Eucharist than Trent was?

[sinkspur]

How do you know that the Novus Ordo is much closer to the early celebration of Christ's Eucharist than Trent was?

Read the Didache, and Justin, Martyr.

[JNB]

There have been howls about a priest shortage for quite some time. In a few years when the bulk of the Vatican II era priests start to retire, Bishops are going to have to make a choice. Either have more priestless parish', or start letting more FSSP priests in.

[sinkspur]

In a few years when the bulk of the Vatican II era priests start to retire, Bishops are going to have to make a choice. Either have more priestless parish', or start letting more FSSP priests in.

They'll take priestless parishes. As I would.

The Novus Ordo is the normative Mass, and I wouldn't hire a priest who refused to say it.

[JNB]

Fr. Fessio, not genearlly supportive of the old rite, said there is no evidence that the early churches used the "versus populaum" (facing the people) during the liturgy. While some "scholars" have tried to claim otherwise, their "evidence" is quite thin, the same kind of "evidence" that womens ordination advocates use for females in the priesthood.

The Roman Rite cleaned of the Galacian influences will still more resmble the rite of Paul V than it would resmble the most common applications of the normative missal.

[JNB]

Thats their choice, for now................

In any event, as the Vatican II generation of priests reitire, and after 2010, Bishops who have less emotional investment in Vatican II and the new liturgy will take a softer view of the old mass than you do.

Speaking of the normative missal, if a priest so desired, he could move the altar to the back of the wall, say the mass "ad orientum" entirely in Latin, and is within his canonical rights to even install communion rails. Would opposed to this as well?

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

Uh, Mother Teresa (who will be canonized soon).

Mother Teresa was born at the turn of the last century and already in her 60s when the N.O. came into existence. She is not a product of the N.O.

Jose Escriva, founder of Opus Dei.

You mean the man who screamed that women's panties should be taken down and spanked on their bare bottoms? Can you say sado-masochist? Saint hardly and even he died after the N.O. was instituted.

The Tridentine would have helped the Church withstand the storm where the N.O. has been completely unable to hold back the flood waters.

[sinkspur]

Bishops who have less emotional investment in Vatican II and the new liturgy will take a softer view of the old mass than you do.

Not if they follow the GIRM. They'll mandate the Novus Ordo, and make exceptions for the Tridentine (if the Tridentine is not already in its own rite).

Speaking of the normative missal, if a priest so desired, he could move the altar to the back of the wall, say the mass "ad orientum" entirely in Latin, and is within his canonical rights to even install communion rails. Would opposed to this as well?

Yes. That's not the Novus Ordo.

If a priest wants to say the Tridentine, get an Indult and say it.

Communion rails are no big deal to me. Let those who wish to receive at the rails, do so, and those who wish to receive standing, do so.

[JNB]

Just read the Didache. Here is the section concerning the Eucharist.

Chapter 9. The Eucharist. Now concerning the Eucharist, give thanks this way. First, concerning the cup:

We thank thee, our Father, for the holy vine of David Thy servant, which You madest known to us through Jesus Thy Servant; to Thee be the glory for ever..

And concerning the broken bread:
We thank Thee, our Father, for the life and knowledge which You madest known to us through Jesus Thy Servant; to Thee be the glory for ever. Even as this broken bread was scattered over the hills, and was gathered together and became one, so let Thy Church be gathered together from the ends of the earth into Thy kingdom; for Thine is the glory and the power through Jesus Christ for ever..

But let no one eat or drink of your Eucharist, unless they have been baptized into the name of the Lord; for concerning this also the Lord has said, "Give not that which is holy to the dogs."


Note this does not mention anything in the way of rubrics, and note the very last line "Give not that which is holy to the dogs", is certainly nothing you hear in todays normative mass.

One great thing about the net, it has liberated information, its ashame that information was not as liberated 35 years ago, and most of tje litirgical abuses and changes would have been prevented when people say "Its a return to the early church".

[sinkspur]

Mother Teresa was born at the turn of the last century and already in her 60s when the N.O. came into existence. She is not a product of the N.O.

50s, actually, but she didn't scream like a banshee because she was "forced" to attend the Novus Ordo.

You mean the man who screamed that women's panties should be taken down and spanked on their bare bottoms? Can you say sado-masochist? Saint hardly and even he died after the N.O. was instituted.

If you want to talk about weird saints, I can give you a dozen Tridentine lollapaloozas.

He's a saint, by infallible declaration of John Paul II. And Escriva mandated that the Opus Dei would celebrate the Novus Ordo.

So, you get to pick and choose the saints you want?

The Tridentine would have helped the Church withstand the storm where the N.O. has been completely unable to hold back the flood waters.

How? And be specific; don't engage in wishful thinking.

[JNB]

Actually it is the Novus Ordo, like it or not. A Priest is well within his rights to move the altar to the back of the sanctuary, say the mass "ad orientum" and use all Latin, and guess what, it would be from the Novus Ordo missal. Again St. Agnes in St.Paul MN is such a parish. The truth is, and rad trads and modernists do not like to admit this, that both missals are not all that different when the Novus Ordo uses traditional rubrics.

[drstevej]

Has been a while since I read the Didache. This certainly doesn't sound like transubstantiation.

Sounds really Protestant!

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

He's a saint, by infallible declaration of John Paul II. And Escriva mandated that the Opus Dei would celebrate the Novus Ordo.

From my understanding, saints are not "infallibly declared". Even if they are, the process was changed for Escriva. The Devil's advocate was eliminated and those who knew him and objected to his canonization were not allowed to testify. His Miracle? Healing a skin rash. I can give you a dozen skin rashes which heal on their own. Escriva was simply a political canonization to legitimize the Pope's personal prelature. That's not picking and choosing but rather looking at the facts in accordance with established procedure.

[sinkspur]

A Priest is well within his rights to move the altar to the back of the sanctuary, say the mass "ad orientum" and use all Latin, and guess what, it would be from the Novus Ordo missal.

Well, thankfully he can't do that in my parish because there is no "back altar" for him to "orientum" toward.

[JNB]

The dogma in the early church was not as well defined. Here is the link I got this from.
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/didache.html

[sinkspur]

From my understanding, saints are not "infallibly declared".

Then you understand incorrectly.

Escriva was simply a political canonization to legitimize the Pope's personal prelature.

The Tradmaster (UR) has his hooks in you so deeply you're even using the same words he does. Next, you'll be going over to the SSPX dark side.