New rules for taking communion issued

Chicago Sun-Times ^ | July 17, 2003 | CATHLEEN FALSANI

[tridentine]

While the changes might seem minor, the first revisions the Vatican has made to the mass since 1975 will affect every Roman Catholic who walks forward for communion.

Before they take the bread and wine, they'll have to bow, as a sign of reverence for the Eucharist, the bread and wine Roman Catholics believe becomes the actual body and blood of Christ during the mass.

Catholics also must be quieter during the mass, sitting meditatively in silence before it begins, after the homily, and after they receive communion instead of chatting with neighbors, or whispering to the kids.

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

Check out NYer's link "Is Your Mass Valid?" It's not invalid, just illicit to cross rites. I posted a response on that thread from a FSSP priest.

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

My Dad is Episcopalian. I watched him bow growing up. I have never seen a Catholic bow in any service in any Church.

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

You think a gesture equates with heresy

I never said that.

[sinkspur]

Return to the past.

We have. The Novus Ordo is much closer to the early celebration of Christ's Eucharist than Trent was.

And even Trent didn't "return to the past" after the Reformation.

You are perfectly free to attend a Tridentine Mass, if you wish. If there's not one near you, write letters to your bishop to get one.

[american colleen]

Can someone tell me what a homily is for, really? This afternoon I was on the telephone with the pastoral associate nun in my parish and we were talking about various subjects and one thing she said sorta bugged me. She said homilies were for exegenesis (sp?) when I mentioned that it is sad the priest never incorporates Catholic teaching into his homilies.

It was a weird conversation regarding her asking me to help out with the restarting of the youth group. I said I'd do what I could to help, but I don't want to be involved in a "community action only" group as it will mirror what the kids belong to in HS. Told her I might be a little too traditional for what she is looking for.

Anyway, thanks in advance for any answers.

[sinkspur]

My Dad is Episcopalian. I watched him bow growing up. I have never seen a Catholic bow in any service in any Church.

So what? Bowing is an act of reverence, is it not?

Logistically, you have a choice between bowing or genuflecting. Most people won't genuflect. So, isn't it better that they bow than do nothing?

[k omalley]

Exegesis, as far as I know, means to expand on the scripture readings of the day. No reason that Catholic teaching can't be part of the exegesis. After all, so much of our doctrine and moral teaching comes from scripture.

[sinkspur]

She said homilies were for exegenesis (sp?) when I mentioned that it is sad the priest never incorporates Catholic teaching into his homilies.

She's right. The homilies are supposed to address the readings, and explain one or all of them to the congregation, then relate them to a lesson for life today.

Catechetics are fine, as long as they relate to the readings.

Catholics are woefully ignorant of Scripture, in addition to being woefully ignorant about a lot of other things.

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

We have. The Novus Ordo is much closer to the early celebration of Christ's Eucharist than Trent was.

Well if everything is supposed to be so great now why is the Church in such disarray? Why are we attracting Protestants to Catholicism and losing Catholics to the Orthodox, evangelicals, Judaism, atheism, you name it. I can name ten to fifteen former Catholics off the top of my head on this site who fit that description. Why are things getting worse instead of getting better?

The answer is, we are becoming more Protestant.

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

It seems like a free for all for some priests and parishes now. I don't know. I'm in an area where people go to Mahony's diocese for inspiration. I can't take much more.

When I hear "community action" I get really agitated.

[sinkspur]

Well if everything is supposed to be so great now why is the Church in such disarray?

How is the Church in disarray? Numbers continue to grow, non-believers and non-Catholics continue to convert. Yes, some fall away, but some have always fallen away. My parish is packed to walls at four of the six masses on weekends.

Religion in America, across the board, is not the bulwark it once was.

Bringing back the Latin Tridentine Mass is not going to, all of a sudden, start filling the Churches again. There's not even a demand for the Indult in every diocese.

The answer is, we are becoming more Protestant.

No we're not. You're just filling your head with all of this ultra-trad stuff from the Tradmaster (ultima ratio) and his small band.

Don't think that the small number of trads on this site represent anything more than this site.

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

Oh I'm fully aware of what's going on out there. My brother has lost the Faith. He informed me last weekend that he no longers considers himself Catholic. He's "spiritual" and doesn't believe in organized religion because it's all about 'guilt'. My own mother who prefers the N.O. can't tolerate all the recent changes. I do remember back when I was young. Even the N.O. then was very different.

I see more Catholics who don't attend Mass, who don't even call themselves Catholic than I care to stomach. My views come from real world experience and are confirmed by what I see on this site.

There's not even a demand for the Indult in every diocese.

So they say. The younger generation can't demand what they haven't experienced. That line is getting tiresome and bogus.

[Desdemona]

The answer is, we are becoming more Protestant.

In many places the worst of it has stopped. What we are is terribly and dangerously ignorant of the faith which makes the flock ripe for the pickings of any number of non-Catholic groups and practices. We are also awfully uneducated in various art forms and we lack common sense sometimes when it comes to labor.

When tradition was thrown out by those who deemed it just not important we lost a lot of our identity. That does not mean that we cannot be traditional or adhere to the older ways on our own. If the clergy will not pass on tradition then it is up to us to do so and pass it on to our friends and family.

The perceived protestantism is more, I think, assimilation into American pop culture and lack of will-power from a number of quarters.

[sinkspur]

My brother has lost the Faith.

How old is he? He may be reacting to the lack of moral credibility of the bishops. Or, he may have lost the faith. It happens. Is he blaming it on the Novus Ordo, like you?

The younger generation can't demand what they haven't experienced.

The Tridentine Mass is not magic. You and the trads seem to think it is.

You really should seek out the Tridentine Mass. Soon. And stop criticizing the Novus Ordo. When celebrated according to the GIRM, it is a beautiful and inspirational liturgy.

The Pope celebrates it, and so do 98% of the rest of the clergy in the world.

[Land of the Irish]

The Pope celebrates it, and so do 98% of the rest of the clergy in the world.

Big flippin' deal.

The Tridentine Mass has been offered a thousandfold more times than the Novus Ordo and has produced a thousandfold more saints.

The Novus Ordo will die long before it even approaches the Tridentine in the number of Masses offered. That is why the Tridentine Mass is the only Mass that requires an Indult. You don't need an indult for a clown Mass, a Dignity Mass, a Life-Teen Mass, a folk Mass, etc. Only the Tridentine requires an Indult.

Why?

[JNB]

The original intent of the Novus Ordo was to get rid of the gallacian elements of the mass, return it to the more original Roman rite. The Roman Canon(Eucharistic Prayer I) was the only Canon used in the Roman Rite for more than 1000 years before Trent, since the time Pope St Gregory the great codified it, and even before then, the Roman Canon was largely similar and used from the early days of the church. Eucharistic Prayer II in its present form was largey constructed by Abp. Bugninis comittie, same with EP III. EP IV is based off the Easteren Canon, so it is more or less a organic development there.

As for rubrics, in the West, the posture during the Canon of the mass was not kneeling as we know it, but with ones hands and knees on the floor bowing their heads down before the sacrament, and many old cathedrals in Europe have in their stained glass windows a figure that represents a Bishop in this posture. As for the posture of the priest, from the very very early days of the church, the liturgical position was Ad Orientum, when a priest led the conregation in prayer in front of a tomb of a martyr in the catacombs, and priests from the Eastren churches still use the ad orientum position.

The normative mass today is hardly like the mass of the eraly Christians sorry to say. Maybe a Novus Ordo in Latin using tridentine rubrucs, such as used at St Agnes in St Paul MN, or Assuption Grotto in Detroit or even the Anglican Use parish', whose missal amounts to a properly translated Novus Ordo and uses traditional rubrics are far closer in that direction.

[sinkspur]

Only the Tridentine requires an Indult.

Why?

The Novus Ordo is the normative Mass.

I think the Tridentine Mass should be enshrined in its own rite, so that those who wish to attend it could do so, unencumbered.

Would that be OK with you, or do you insist, like the SSPX, that the Novus Ordo be suppressed entirely?

That ain't gonna happen.

[JNB]

The progressives did not severly damage the churhc overnight, nor will it be rebuilt overnight. What the progressives did do is bide their time utill the right time, namely the confusion after Vatican II and Pope Paul VIs very weak leadership, to get most of the changes they wanted though, and traditional Catholics will have to use the same methods to retake the church.

There is one thing we can do that will help right now. The FSSP seminary in Nebraska can only take 12-16 men in a year(dependeing on how large the previous graduating class was) out of the 80+ that apply every year, and right now they are working on doubleing their capacity, but traditional/orthdox Catholics should make that every single man who wants to become a traditional priest will have the ability to do so. Imagine the impact of the FSSP seminary had the ability to take in 50 men every year, and imagine the impact it would have if it ordained 30+ men to the priesthood every year. This can not happen if it does not get the funding for it to happen. The reason why Rome still even pays attention to the traditional movment is because of the number of vocations it produces, numbers that Rome can not ignore.

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

How old is he?

34.

Is he blaming it on the Novus Ordo, like you?

He wouldn't know the difference. He is absolutely clueless. If asked he couldn't tell you what a Tridentine was. Despite a Catholic school education he is completely uneducated about the Faith.

The Tridentine Mass is not magic

No, it's not. I never said the Church wouldn't have suffered either if it had kept the Tridentine. The difference is, the Tridentine is the Cipro to the Novus Ordo amoxicillin. You can't cure a life threatening infection with amoxicillin.

You really should seek out the Tridentine Mass

I attended it in the previous town where I lived when it was infrequently offered. There is nothing available locally. I would have to drive hours and that is not something I can do right now.

And stop criticizing the Novus Ordo

I've never blatantly criticized it before but if that's what you want here goes. It is booorrrring, banal, insipid and completely uninspiring. How many great saints has it produced? What's that, exactly zero? Gee, I'm shocked. But yes, it's valid and I respect the feelings of those who have an affinity for it. I've never said it should be outright done away with. If the Tridentine is so unwanted and unpopular, put it side by side in every Church and let the Holy Spirit decide. In twenty years the Novus Ordo will be the novelty. The bishops won't do this of course because they are afraid.

BTW, go to an Episcopalian service this Sunday. Then go to the Novus Ordo. You will find they are identical. Identical.

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

I've started a monthly contribution to the FSSP.