Posted on 06/30/2003 2:53:51 PM PDT by NYer
VATICAN CITY Pope John Paul II again reached out to the Orthodox Church on Sunday, saying his efforts at reconciliation weren't just "ecclesiastic courtesy" but a sign of his profound desire to unite the Orthodox and Roman Catholic churches.
John Paul made the comments during his regular appearance to pilgrims and tourists in St. Peter's Square. Later Sunday, he welcomed a delegation from the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople at a traditional Mass marking the feast day of St. Peter and St. Paul.
"The exchange of delegations between Rome and Constantinople, for the respective patron feasts, goes beyond just an act of ecclesiastic courtesy," the pontiff said. "It reflects the profound and rooted intention to re-establish the full communion between East and West."
John Paul has made improving relations with the Orthodox Church a hallmark of his nearly 25-year papacy, visiting several mostly Orthodox countries and expressing regret for the wrongs committed by the Catholic Church against Orthodox Christians.
Despite his efforts at healing the 1,000-year-old schism, he hasn't yet visited Russia because of objections from the Russian Orthodox Church.
During the Mass on Sunday, 42 new archbishops received the pallium, a band of white wool decorated with black crosses that symbolizes their bond with the Vatican. Two of the archbishops received the pallium in their home parishes; the rest took part in the Mass in St. Peter's Basilica.
Thank you for this remarkable insight into your thinking. This has been a most enlightening thread.
But mostly, I'd be appreciative of his just leaving me alone. I've had quite enough of his threads dripping hatred for the Orthodox Church and its followers.
Please ping me when you post something.
Actually, without knowing MarMema's personal story, I would advise you to consider the case of the Eastern Orthodox Convert Franky Schaeffer.
Familiar Name? Well, it should be. Franky is the eldest son of FRANCIS SCHAEFFER, the greatest Protestant Theologian of the Twentieth Century.
For better or worse, there is a considerable record of "Western Protestants" who have "travelled East unto Orthodoxy". While lesser in terms of absolute numbers than Protestant Converts to Romanism, in terms of percentage ratios (given the fact that Orthodox Presence in the West is quite small), the Protestant conversion to Orthodoxy is far greater than conversion to "Rome Sweet Home".
It's sorta like Prince Vladimir's conversion to Orthodoxy:
Offering only my own two personal anecdotes...
Sadly for us Presbyterians, it's probably our fault most of all. I say without Vanity (well, perhaps some vanity, but I also speak the Truth) that we train the best Minds in Protestantism. We know Aquinas far better than the average Roman Catholic; and when the average Eastern Orthodox cannot find Dr. Kalomiros famous address "The River of Fire", we not only explain the particulars, we graciously provide him with the URL in question (I have actually had to do this on behalf of Eastern Orthodox who needed to cite Kalomiros, and did not know where to find him on the Web).
We train the finest Minds in Protestantism, and then, upon their graduation, we present them with... A Presbyterian Church USA which actually can't decide whether or not to ordain Sodomites to the Presbytery. (Agghh!! Gahhh!!!)
Well, Judgment comes first upon the House of the Lord. And so they journey to Rome. Or (what is actually more statistically likely), they journey East unto Byzantium.
As a result, we find that the Finest Lay Apologists amongst both Eastern Orthodoxy (Franky Schaeffer most famously, but many more besides) and the Finest Lay Apologists amongst Roman Catholicism (Gerry Matatics, Scott and Kimberly Hahn, Robert Sungenis, Patrick Madrid, Paul Thigpen, James Akin... all of them!! EVERY SINGLE ONE!!)... are EX-PRESBYTERIANS. Every one, to a man.
It's a crying shame for Presbyterianism, because we need them here, and we need them now. If the blood spent on the battlefield counts for anything, approximately 60 to 90% of the American blood shed to establish American Independence in 1776 to 1783 was Presbyterian blood, and if America needed us ever, she needs us now.
But at the same time, I can understand why they left. It ain't much fun to fight for a lost cause when the Theological Liberals subordinated the American Presbyterian Church to Apostasy at least 50 years ago.
That's us. So it has ever been, so it ever shall be.
So it goes.
best, OP
Look, it still doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Dig it:
Yeah, we know you have that "First Amendment" Thing... but we're Orthodox. Frankly, we're accustomed to being butchered for no good reason. Happens all the time.
America kills us LESS!! (sometimes). That's why we Love you!! We love, and love, and love you -- Unconditionally!!"
As I said, the Serbs love America. Like a freakin' genetic predisposition. It's simply a Fact.
I don't have a drop of Serbian Blood, and I am as Americanist as the day is long. Nonetheless, I don't understand it...
It's just the way it is.
Some things just are.
1.A bunch of trips to Russia, during which on several of them we stayed in homes of Orthodox Christians.
2.Simultaneous experiences at home during which people kept telling us about the Orthodox church, which we had never heard about before.
3.A personal experience with an overwhelming feeling of peace quite out of the blue while praying at Saint Basil's in Moscow.
4. A visit to the Orthodox liturgy.
Baloney. Try reading about the Inquisition and Wars of Religion from impartial historians, rather than inflamed Protestants.
I really wasn't interested in going into the Ustashe at this time, but why don't we start off by asking that you reliably document the number of victims you claim here (2,000,000!) and Rome's "complicity" in their murder. I won't accept Edumund Black and the like as worthwile historians in defense of your position either. It would be interesting to see if you can quote any actual source documents abotu what you wish to believe here, as opposed to historians quoting each other.
Except for making a saint of a viciously insane Ustashe killer at just the right time to encourage the resurgence of the Ustashe under Rome's banner.
Can you name the people killed by Archbishop Stepanic?
A substantial number of those burned were Jews who had been forcibly converted to Romanism (if not killed outright).
Considering the reliability of the other sources you've used, I'm sure you'll forgive me for saying "BS!" There is no purpose in discussing historty with people who consider Lorraine Boettner and the like truthful.
I had the same feelings about the surgery and deaths of those Siamese twins recently. I think what God ordains is perhaps more important than what man thinks should be done.
"At the same time, neo-Ustashe noise is becoming louder, almost totally drowning few critical voices. In seven years, starting with the rather shy relativization of Ustashe crimes, we've arrived bit by bit, to the first eulogy of a criminal and celebration of crime, from a church altar in the center of Zagreb and the Republic of Croatia. Father Lasic's sermon, officially supported by several parties from the extreme right, received far more publicity than both condemnations of the event by his superiors (which were published on page 15 in Glas Koncila on January 12, 1997). In spite of everything, a great majority of the Croatian public has been silent during the last seven years. What is the meaning of this new "Croatian silence" in which, each one in its own way, all leading opposition parties and all state, cultural and artistic Croatian institutions have participated?"
I am planning to do as much research today online as time permits because I seem to recall that the most recent beatification or honor ceremony from the pope in Croatia was for a man who founded a group that eventually became very pro-nazi.
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