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Pope Again Reaches Out to Orthodox Church
Herald Tribune ^ | June 30, 2003

Posted on 06/30/2003 2:53:51 PM PDT by NYer

VATICAN CITY Pope John Paul II again reached out to the Orthodox Church on Sunday, saying his efforts at reconciliation weren't just "ecclesiastic courtesy" but a sign of his profound desire to unite the Orthodox and Roman Catholic churches.

John Paul made the comments during his regular appearance to pilgrims and tourists in St. Peter's Square. Later Sunday, he welcomed a delegation from the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople at a traditional Mass marking the feast day of St. Peter and St. Paul.

"The exchange of delegations between Rome and Constantinople, for the respective patron feasts, goes beyond just an act of ecclesiastic courtesy," the pontiff said. "It reflects the profound and rooted intention to re-establish the full communion between East and West."

John Paul has made improving relations with the Orthodox Church a hallmark of his nearly 25-year papacy, visiting several mostly Orthodox countries and expressing regret for the wrongs committed by the Catholic Church against Orthodox Christians.

Despite his efforts at healing the 1,000-year-old schism, he hasn't yet visited Russia because of objections from the Russian Orthodox Church.

During the Mass on Sunday, 42 new archbishops received the pallium, a band of white wool decorated with black crosses that symbolizes their bond with the Vatican. Two of the archbishops received the pallium in their home parishes; the rest took part in the Mass in St. Peter's Basilica.


TOPICS: Activism; Apologetics; Catholic; Current Events; Ecumenism; General Discusssion; History; Ministry/Outreach; Orthodox Christian; Religion & Culture; Theology; Worship
KEYWORDS: catholic; ecumenism; orthodox; pope; vatican
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To: RussianConservative; MarMema
Like Pergetory

As a Catholic, I'd describe Purgatory and the need for it like this:

3. But if he was a believer, and did not corrupt the faith, and having sinned, did indeed repent, but did not reach the performance of good deeds to prove his repentance by actions, then he is led where God assigns him, that he may be punished temporarily, as long as Divine Righteousness considers proper. (Catechism of the Eastern Orthodox Church)

You deny this doctrine of your own Church?

221 posted on 07/01/2003 3:40:16 PM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: FormerLib
You mean the ones given to all of the Apostles equally?

Where did Christ give the Keys to allt he Apostles equally? And where does any Church Father say anything to back up this startling assertion?

222 posted on 07/01/2003 3:46:52 PM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: Hermann the Cherusker
I deny doctrine of your church and creation of Purgetory and raising of monies by your church to pray for dead to move them out of place...I deny sale of indulgences on equal ground. I see you avoid points I bring up like whole fiction of Greek's second baptism...now you avoid subject of Pope as earthly ruler since few hairs left to splice. You have led long, twisted and pointless effort to dodge and splice hairs in process you even defended Nazies on several occassion...says much.
223 posted on 07/01/2003 3:51:10 PM PDT by RussianConservative (Hristos: the Light of the World)
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To: sinkspur
First, judging from writing of your fellow Catholics here, you have nerve. We not ask to unite, you push this unite crap all time and all place...sword or word. Second, hell several of fellows even defended/excuse nazies on this thread....you have nerve but not much else.
224 posted on 07/01/2003 3:53:13 PM PDT by RussianConservative (Hristos: the Light of the World)
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To: MarMema
You didn't answer the question. Now let me add another. Do the Orthodox accept the validity of all Roman Catholic Sacraments?

If the answer is yes, why are converts in the Greek Orthodox Church being rebaptized? I'll give you a hint: "The Orthodox Church does not accept baptism by sprinkling or pouring of water" (Catechism of the Greek Orthodox Faith).

Evidence regarding rebaptism here, quoting protests of the Balmand statement, "especially to protests against that statement's call for an end to the practice of rebaptism of converts"

And further down:

"It is this provision of Constantinople in 1484, together with Canon 95 of the Synod in Trullo, which the Council of Moscow in 1667 invokes in its decree forbidding the rebaptism of Catholics, a decree that has remained authoritative in the East Slavic Orthodox churches to the present day."

And:

"Ecumenical Patriarch Cyril V issued a decree in 1755 requiring the baptism of Roman Catholics, Armenians, and all others presently outside the visible bounds of the Orthodox Church, when they seek full communion with it. This decree has never been formally rescinded, but subsequent rulings by the Patriarchate of Constantinople (e.g., in 1875, 1880, and 1888) did allow for the reception of new communicants by chrismation rather than baptism. Nevertheless, these rulings left rebaptism as an option subject to 'pastoral discretion.'"

And:

"In his own day, he argued, the Orthodox were protected by the might of the Turkish Sultan, and so were again free to follow the perennial 'exactness' of the Church. Latins were therefore now to be rebaptized."

I'm "the most clueless person [you] have encountered in awhile" because I speak to you the truth? I post fantasy and ignorance when it is the truth of your own history publicly admitted by your own Church? Are you saying I've made up the history of the Orthodox Church myself?

225 posted on 07/01/2003 4:04:57 PM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: Hermann the Cherusker
You are right...the thought being I would rather not be a "Roman" Catholic...I prefer, like my forefathers to reject heresy.
226 posted on 07/01/2003 4:05:55 PM PDT by TexConfederate1861 ("better the turban of the Sultan, than the tiara of the Pope!")
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To: RussianConservative
"Ecumenical Patriarch Cyril V issued a decree in 1755 requiring the baptism of Roman Catholics, Armenians, and all others presently outside the visible bounds of the Orthodox Church, when they seek full communion with it. This decree has never been formally rescinded, but subsequent rulings by the Patriarchate of Constantinople (e.g., in 1875, 1880, and 1888) did allow for the reception of new communicants by chrismation rather than baptism. Nevertheless, these rulings left rebaptism as an option subject to 'pastoral discretion.'"
227 posted on 07/01/2003 4:07:02 PM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: RussianConservative
you even defended Nazies on several occassion

Show me where.

228 posted on 07/01/2003 4:07:38 PM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: crazykatz
Don't be a creep about it.
229 posted on 07/01/2003 4:09:29 PM PDT by Conservative til I die (They say anti-Catholicism is the thinking man's anti-Semitism; that's an insult to thinking men)
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To: RussianConservative
now you avoid subject of Pope as earthly ruler since few hairs left to splice

I'm not avoiding it at all. I don't know what there is to discuss about it. The Byzantines made him thus. Are you objecting to history, that the Emperor's Exarch moved to Ravenna and left the Pope in charge secularly in Rome, runnign the courts and regulating the economy? Object all you like, but it was the Byzantine Emperor's who did this.

230 posted on 07/01/2003 4:09:37 PM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: Hermann the Cherusker; MarMema; RussianConservative; Chancellor Palpatine; The_Reader_David
Where did Christ give the Keys to all the Apostles equally?

In John 20, as we shall see.

First, what are the "keys to the kingdom"? They are defined for us in Matthew 16:19
"And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

Clearly, the keys to the kingdom are the ability to bind or loose in heaven.

So when we read in John 20:19-23
Then, the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled,for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them, "Peace be with you." When He had said this, He showed them His hands and His side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. So Jesus said to them again, "Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you." And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."

We see that this has been received by all of the Apostles. They all have the ability bind or loose in heaven. They all have the keys to the kingdom.

And where does any Church Father say anything to back up this startling assertion?

What do you think first among equals meant?

231 posted on 07/01/2003 4:10:44 PM PDT by FormerLib
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To: TexConfederate1861
I prefer, like my forefathers to reject heresy.

Complete the quote: "and embrace Islam." That's what so many Orthodox did. That's why there are so many "Turks" who look like Greeks.

232 posted on 07/01/2003 4:11:03 PM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: RussianConservative
You know very well, Ceasar is loose for ruler, you splice hairs and avoid topic...Popes were KINGS of Papal States, still kings of Vatican City. YOu know this but can not admit.

Dude, you should tuck your tail between your legs and quit while ahead. Stop trying to spin it. You made a gross error in referring to the Pope as a Caesar and a King, got called on it, now you should move on to other histrionics and not belabor the issue and look foolish.
233 posted on 07/01/2003 4:11:37 PM PDT by Conservative til I die (They say anti-Catholicism is the thinking man's anti-Semitism; that's an insult to thinking men)
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To: FormerLib
What do you think first among equals meant?

Again, show me a Church Father who said the Pope is "First among equals".

234 posted on 07/01/2003 4:12:17 PM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: RussianConservative
I wouldn't go around touting the existence of the Old Catholics as a good thing or something that is in your favor or something. The Old Catholics are an extremely schismatic and thoroughly irrelevant sect. They aren't Catholics, either.
235 posted on 07/01/2003 4:13:11 PM PDT by Conservative til I die (They say anti-Catholicism is the thinking man's anti-Semitism; that's an insult to thinking men)
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To: RussianConservative
I'm not angry at Catholics in general, only those who try to shove their "unity" down our throats.

Eh? Are the Jihadist Jesuits forcing people to convert with the sword? And in all these pictures of the Pope and Orthodox patriarchs the Orthodox always seem happy, unless I'm missing the guns pointed at them behind their backs.
236 posted on 07/01/2003 4:15:09 PM PDT by Conservative til I die (They say anti-Catholicism is the thinking man's anti-Semitism; that's an insult to thinking men)
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To: Hermann the Cherusker
Dodging the Scriptural quote, I see!
237 posted on 07/01/2003 4:15:19 PM PDT by FormerLib
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To: FormerLib
I'm surprised you didn't appeal to Matthew 18.18 regarding the Keys.

The Keys are a symbol of ruling authority. Thus, being granted the Key to the City. The power to bind and loose is not a power to rule, but to forgive sins, as you correctly state. The Keys relate to the Founding of the Church upon Peter.

238 posted on 07/01/2003 4:15:43 PM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: MarMema; Aquinasfan
We are all one church. I know this is hard for those outside the church to understand, but we don't require a vicar to maintain spiritual unity among us.

Yes, it is difficult to understand when your own authorities say that you are divided.

We live in the poisoned atmosphere of anathemas and excommunications, court cases and litigations, dubious consecrations of dubious bishops, hatred, calumny, lies! But do we think about the irreparable moral damage all this inflicts to our people? How can they respect the Hierarchy and its decisions? What meaning can the very concept of canonicity have for them? Are we not encouraging them to consider all norms, all regulations, all rules as purely relative? One wonders sometimes whether our bishops realize the scandal of this situation, whether they ever think about the cynicism all this provokes and feeds in the hearts of Orthodox people. Three Russian jurisdictions, two Serbian, two Romanian, two Albanian, two Bulgarian. A split among the Syrians . . . The animosity between the Russians and the Carpatho-Russians... The Ukrainian problem! And all this at a time when Orthodoxy in America is coming of age, when truly wonderful possibilities exist for its growth, expansion, creative progress. We teach our children to be "proud" of Orthodoxy, we constantly congratulate ourselves about all kinds of historic events and achievements, our church publications distill an almost unbearable triumphalism and optimism, yet, if we were true to the spirit of our faith we ought to repent in "sackcloth and ashes," we ought to cry day and night about the sad, the tragical state of our Church. If "canonicity" is anything but a pharisaic and legalistic self-righteousness, if it has anything to do with the spirit of Christ and the tradition of His Body, the Church, we must openly proclaim that the situation in which we all live is utterly uncanonical regardless of all the justifications and sanctions that every one finds for his "position." For nothing can justify the bare fact: Our Church is divided. To be sure, there have always been divisions and conflicts among Christians. But for the first time in history division belongs to the very structure of the Church, for the first time canonicity seems strangely disconnected from its fundamental "content" and purpose—to assure, express, defend and fulfill the Church as Divinely given Unity, for the first time, in other terms, one seems to find normal a multiplicity of "jurisdictions". Truly we must wake up and be horrified by this situation. (Problems of Orthodoxy in America, by Fr. Alexander Schmemann)

239 posted on 07/01/2003 4:22:18 PM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: Hermann the Cherusker
The Church was founded on Peter's statement of faith, that Jesus was the Son of God, and not upon one single man.

Clearly, our two churches can never be united when we cannot even agree on that!

Better to pursue our own paths.

240 posted on 07/01/2003 4:27:08 PM PDT by FormerLib
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