Proposing a Truce

Vanity | 6/27/03 | Antoninus

[Antoninus]

Friends,

In light of recent national and international events, it should be clear to most of you that the Christian underpinnings of western civilization are being knocked out from under our feet. Recent acts of judicial fiat in both Canada and in our own country have made it abundantly clear that the "post-Christian" world envisioned by anti-Christian radicals for centuries now may be close at hand.

Rather than continuing to scratch and claw our own eyes out over our differences (which will not, by the way, be resolved on this forum) I suggest that we call a temporary truce. Nearly all of us have the same cultural values including an abhorrence for abortion, a desire to raise our children free from intrusive and pervasive immorality, a revulsion at the "gay" deathstyle, and a desire to express our religious convictions publicly without threat of punishment.

If we continue on our current trajectory, is there any doubt that Christians will be reduced to the status of second class citizens? There are already whiffs of persecution emanating from Canada and some European countries. Are you truly prepared to face this threat if it arrives here? Of course, there is something to be said for being imprisoned and stripped of your family and possessions for expressing your Christian beliefs. But how many of us in our soft communities are ready to face the same trials that routinely confronted our early saints?

I maintain that there is much we can do to turn the tide. First and foremost, taking a cue from the citizens of Nineveh, we should put on sack-cloth and ashes (at least figuratively, if not literally) and seek personal repentence. Second, we must get active. If you're already active, prepare to become moreso.

The activity I'm proposing is not simply political, though that is a part of it. It needs to be evangelical--I accuse myself and my Church in general of going mainly soft on this issue. Indeed, many of the most celebrated evangelical Catholics are converts (!) And for you Evangelical Protestants, I challenge you to turn your fervor away from trying to convert pious and believing Catholics and train your theological cannons on the great and growing mass of secularized, sexualized youth. In short, I believe that a new, powerful burst of evangelization is the only thing that can save Western civilization from the otherwise unavoidable implosion of anarchy.

At any rate, if you think I'm being ridiculous or overstating the problem, just imagine we were back in 1990 and I told you that within 15 years, the Supreme Court would declare sodomy to be a constitutional right and that Canada would consider two homosexual men the moral equivalent of marriage.

If we unite, we can win. If we stay divided, we cede the victory to the forces of darkness. Your choice.

John answered him, saying: Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, who followeth not us: and we forbade him. But Jesus said: Do not forbid him. For there is no man that doth a miracle in my name and can soon speak ill of me. For he that is not against you is for you. (Mark 9:38)

[Antoninus]

I know plenty of people who have grown in their understanding of doctrine through these threads. I know at least one who has come to Christ through a discussion initiated online and continued offline.

One. For all those hours? Hmmm. Sounds like burying your talent in the ground. Meanwhile, in perhaps half-a-dozen visits to an AOL Catholic chat room covering perhaps 8 hours, I've had substantive conversations with about 12 people--all of whom were almost completely ignornant of even the rudiments of Christian doctrine. I can't say that all of these people are ardent Christians today, but every one of them thanked me for taking the time to explain things that previously made no sense to them.

[drstevej]

Like I said, go for it.

I'll let the Lord evaluate how I use my talent.

[First Amendment]

Thanks for pinging me - this is a matter to which I have been giving a lot of thought, and here is something I posted on a thread about cloning a couple of days ago:

>>>>This brings up the question of purpose of life. If someone sees the purpose of life on earth as more and more personal pleasure and enjoyment, and that is the gauge by which successful life is measured, then why not do all of the above (ie, abortion, cloning, as well as a host of other degradations)? Limitless pursuit of enjoyment and pleasure is a lot easier if untrammelled (sp?) by "outmoded" notions of "sentimentalities" (as described by one poster above), or in other words, by rejecting the traditional guidelines of right and wrong (such hated words!) inscribed in the scriptures of the world.

I am not just referring to the Christian Bible but the Old Testament of the Jews, their associated writings, even the Koran (which I have read a lot of) and the ancient teachings of the Vedas (which I have studied for more than 30 years). Add to that the ethical teachings of the Buddhists and they ALL agree on some very basic points:

1. Life is sacred, there is a higher purpose to life than just eating, sleeping, sex and defending. That higher purpose is to understand who we are as spiritual beings (atma or soul), and what is our relationship to God (except Buddhists don't believe in that part).

2. The earth and all creatures who dwell on it are creations of God and ultimately belong to Him, and therefore we must act according to His laws, since He is the owner and controller, and He makes the rules. Therefore, in order to be happy and have a harmonious life, it behooves us to ascertain those laws and try to adjust ourselves to them.

3. Because of 1 and 2, we actually cannot have inner peace or joy trying to live a life of undridled hedonism (that's why liberals are always so angry and miserable). We can actually only be happy within when doing 1 and 2.
In fact, the more we try to have a perfect life of personal enjoyment, the more unhappy we are as individuals and the more society goes to hell.<<<<


The real "enemy" is hatred and envy of God, and the desire to destroy what He has created (the natural family, His immutable laws, absolute right and wrong, for a start). Since atheists, hedonists, secular humanists can't create anything (only God can create) they try to destroy. They can't destroy the Throne of God but they can try to mess up His creation.

We need to fight this evil together.

When we win, then we can sit down and have peaceful debates about theology. Nothing wrong with peaceful debate even now, here and there - but the enemy is the great darkness which threatens to engulf the world with lies, lust and anger - not other pious souls who believe in the Supremacy of God, but maybe worship Him on a different day, in a differently shaped building, maybe offering Him different rituals, or calling Him by a different name. There is only One Supreme Person.

[ACAC]

I agree with you. Even if we could just pick out a few issues, like abortion and gay marriage, to fight our common enemy. Also, I get upset when I hear one side trying to convert the other. Why convert a Christian to a Christian? Many people to try to convert Catholics to Protestant or vice versa have never even talked to a non-believer about Christ.

[RnMomof7]

One. For all those hours? Hmmm. Sounds like burying your talent in the ground. Meanwhile, in perhaps half-a-dozen visits to an AOL Catholic chat room covering perhaps 8 hours, I've had substantive conversations with about 12 people--all of whom were almost completely ignornant of even the rudiments of Christian doctrine. I can't say that all of these people are ardent Christians today, but every one of them thanked me for taking the time to explain things that previously made no sense to them.

Luk 15:7   I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

[newberger]

I have been watching this discussion this afternoon with mixed emotions. On the one hand, nobody is insulting anyone. On the other hand, the idea of a truce comes across rather vaguely.

As one who is neither Protestant of Roman Catholic, some of you have at times considered me somewhat neutral on issues being fought over. I'm not neutral. I really believe that hte Orthodox Church is Christ's true church. There, I said the hard stuff. Having said that, I don't claim to love the Lord more or to be closer to Him that the rest of you.

Now, I think that Antoninus is basically *right* about the danger that we are in. Remember, Europe opposes George W Bush not primarily because of his politics but because he claims, as a Christian, that certain things are right and certain things are wrong. He is opposed primarily because he is a man of *faith*. Although the country is largely behind him and trends are pro-life right now, there is a lot of animosity towards us out there. It just isn't ripe, yet.

In the 20th century, Orthodox (and other) Christians in the old USSR died for their faith by the tens of thousahds. The Russian Church still hasn't recovered. I know a man in my parish who was imprisoned several times by the government in Ukraine. I don't think persecution in imminent but we need to have our eyes open.

But, Antoninus, the idea of a "truce" is too vague. Look, I am embarassed by the fighting and insults I read in this forum but Steve, Big Mack, Terry, and others are *right* when they insist that we cannot move ahead by pretending that our differences don't matter. It isn't possible to "get the Word out" together when we disagree about what the Word *says*!!!

I think there is an answer, though. It is found in the "New Commandment" to love one another. The early church was marked by the fact that pagans said, "behold how they love one another". Love doesn't pretend that differences don't matter. Love finds ways to *understand* others and their ideas. I am content to have the Holy Spirit work in your lives as *He* wants to. I don't need to twist your arms and bring a soap box to this forum. I can, though explain how Orthodoxy differs on this or that point and let you all react to it.

Well, that leaves us with the question of how to get from waring camps to a demonstration of God's love when we disagree. I think the prime ingredient of that change is found in praying for each other. It's a powerful force. When Terry (rnMomOf7) shared a request for her grandson's urgent need for healing a dew weeks ago, I had the privilege of praying and asking my parish to join in. Terry and I have *very* different theologies but we love the same Lord and can discuss things (I believe) because of that.

What do you all think of this? Does it make sense to you?

How might we flesh this out???

Paul (aka Newberger)

[Freedom'sWorthIt]

Actually - because I do get out is the reason for the above posts. Homeschooled children are wonderful "lights" in the darkness. They are what per cent of children today? I am certainly glad that your children are doing well and have high expectations for their future in this country, in this world.

Just answer this question - are you suggesting that Western Civilization is not collapsing around us?

Sink - I was not disagreeing with the original post - but was agreeing wholeheartedly because of the deepening darkness to which Antoninus spoke in the original post: "In light of recent national and international events, it should be clear to most of you that the Christian underpinnings of western civilization are being knocked out from under our feet. Recent acts of judicial fiat in both Canada and in our own country have made it abundantly clear that the "post-Christian" world envisioned by anti-Christian radicals for centuries now may be close at hand."

Do you or PNAMBC disagree with that statement?

I heartily agree with it and with the premise of Protestants and Catholics uniting to allow the light of Jesus Christ to dispel the deepening darkness. Do you disagree with that suggestion?

I did not.

[Freedom'sWorthIt]

Your suggestion, (prayer for each other) and that of LadyDoc's - fasting and prayer for the urgent needs around us - are certainly welcome answers to this dilemma. Thank you both.

[MarMema]

In the list you submitted, why did you BOTHER with 'ending tax deductions for Christian charities

LOL, that was the funniest thing I have read in some time. I'm going down the list of Armegeddon scenario and oops, no tax deductions for my favorite charity - I mean as if starving wasn't hard enough.

[MarMema]

What do you all think of this? Does it make sense to you?

I think it is a wonderful suggestion and it will need Christ to take flight.

[MarMema]

THE SELF-WILLED DESCENT INTO THE ABYSS

From under the Rubble

Moral renewal

[Freedom'sWorthIt]

Thank you for those links. Very englightening. It led to me reading also about Marx as a Satanist priest, which makes sense of a great deal of what has happened in every country into which Marxism has seeped and taken hold.

This last paragraph from Under the Rubble - is telling and fits in with where we are in this country, does it not?

"Solzhenitsyn's mission in life was to speak the truth to those in power. Professor Ericson has noted that although Solzhenitsyn described the horrors of Russia's past, he always ended his books with a note of hope. In each of his writings, the root of our contemporary horrors is simply that "men have forgotten God." Change is possible however, once people put their faith in God. This insight is a profound warning not only for Solzhenitsyn's fellow Russians, but for all of us "who have ears to hear."

Can we not all agree with these statements - go with the Truce proposed - and stand together in urging others to "put their faith in God"???

[Freedom'sWorthIt]

enlightening, not englightening. Sorry. Also, that paragraph is not directly from "Under the Rubble" but from one of the linked articles related to it. The linked article quotes Solzhenitzen from Under the Rubble as writing that paragraph.

[Polycarp]

I'm disgusted by the comments on this thread. Fools rearranging the chairs on the deck of the Titanic will have much to answer for when they come to Judgement. The time for internecine warfare between committed Christians is over. I guess the only point we will find unity of action in these Culture Wars is when we encourage each other to persevere and not lose faith as they lead us to the gallows.

From the thread Is Lawrence Worse Than Roe?

And what about homosexual marriage? The Massachusetts legislature is considering that issue right now. If they decide in favor of it, any homosexual marriage contracted in Massachusetts has to be acknowledged in every other state.

With sodomy laws still in place, this wouldn't have been the case. No state is forced to accept contracts from another state that go against their own laws and policies. But now that the sodomy laws will be removed, no state has a legal defense against homosexual marriage. They'll all fall like dominoes.

The LAST HOPE for defeating homosexual marriage lies in a Constitutional amendment that explicitly defines marriage as the union of one man and one woman. The Alliance for Marriage, headed up by Matt Daniels, is leading the way in calling for the Federal Marriage Amendment to do just that.

If the Supreme Court finds the amendment unconstitutional -- which, thanks to Lawrence, they now claim the right to do -- then we're sunk. The homosexual agenda will have won the day.

And this is why it's absolutely CRUCIAL that Catholics, Evangelicals, and all social conservatives in America band together NOW to stop them. There has been infighting among the groups in the past --

[Polycarp]

I guess the only point we will find unity of action in these Culture Wars is when we encourage each other to persevere and not lose faith as they lead us to the gallows.

Nix that. For some on this thread, they will still be calling for us Catholics to repent and believe and accept Jesus as personal Lord and Savior even as we are led to our Christian martyrdom for our Faith in Him.

[B Knotts]

You're right. I'm afraid we've seen what some people's priorities are.

[Polycarp]

What have you folks done on the News forum lately to fight this paganization of the culture?

Be careful you're not making your vices into virtues: some hide out in the Religion Forum Ghetto, beating up on their fellow Christian, out of cowardice to engage the real battles of our time.

Some of us have been fighting the homosexual agenda on the News Forum, against severe opposition. Yet few of the folks obsessed with Christian internecine warfare on these Religion Forum ghetto threads would dare step foot in those real battles with evil, preferring instead to hide out here thinking their efforts are virtuous or are "doing the work of the Lord."

I find these arguments, that

There are some differences that can not be compromised even for political reasons...All that being said the debate on doctrine is healthy and necessary if we are to continue to have religious freedom....

to be nothing more than guilty rationalizations for not engaging the gravest battle of Christianity, substituting the vice of internecine Christian warfare for the virtue of fighting for Christ against a pagan society.

[RnMomof7]

Poly, these are terrible and sinful times. But they will not find resolution in false alliances or by having partnerships with the cults, just because we hold some common values with them . The light has NO fellowship with darkness. . We can not hang up our sword to take up the weapons of the enemy, and fight the battle on their turf .The weapons of our warfare are not carnal but are MIGHTY to the pulling down of strongholds. Roman Catholics, the Eastern Orthodox, and Protestants that profess the creeds hold together a common foundation, but we find many differences on what constitutes salvation. That is a major issue , and you do know that.

Brian, there will be no constitutional amendments that can or will restore morality to the people in this nation. The only thing that changes people is a change of heart.

The people outside the clinics did more to reduce abortion than a million phone calls . They stood and prayed and their testimony did not go unheard. We are better to spend 10 minutes on our knees that hours working the phones

Nothing is happening that is not a part of God's master plan

    2Ti 3:1   This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
     2Ti 3:2   For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,   
  2Ti 3:3   Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,   
  2Ti 3:4   Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
     2Ti 3:5   Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
     2Ti 3:6   For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
     2Ti 3:7   Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Brian THIS IS the world we live in. A constitutional amendment will not change this even if it was a possibility. Men love the darkness more than the light.

Look under whose watch this decision was made...was there ONE word from the "conservative Christian " President? Did the White house submit a brief to the court? No they let Rick Santorum hang out to dry.

It is useless to worry about the culture , this is already Sodom. It is times to pray for protection for our children and grandchildren and to work to bring the gospel message of salvation to as many as can hear it.

The problem with alliances is over time they blur distinctions , in working for a cultural change we could lose the gospel. Evangelical Protestants consider that a larger problem than social sin. They will work to hold back the flood gate, but we hold no delusions that we will succeed .Maranatha

[MarMema]

There isn't just the news forum in life, Poly. I joined a Christian women's political group fighting abortion and send them money.

Our family prays - what is more powerful than that?

I am trying to gently lead a Chinese woman at my place of employment to stay with her Bible study at a local protestant church.

And you might think this is silly but I wear a cross and display it, always.

[Polycarp]

But they will not find resolution in false alliances or by having partnerships with the cults,

Alliances among committed Christians are not "false" and none of us, Catholic, protestant, nor Orthodox belongs to a "cult."

More rationalization for continued rearranging the deck chairs, and internecine Christian warfare, to which some are so addicted they are blind. More making vice into virtue.