Proposing a Truce

Friends,

In light of recent national and international events, it should be clear to most of you that the Christian underpinnings of western civilization are being knocked out from under our feet. Recent acts of judicial fiat in both Canada and in our own country have made it abundantly clear that the "post-Christian" world envisioned by anti-Christian radicals for centuries now may be close at hand.

Rather than continuing to scratch and claw our own eyes out over our differences (which will not, by the way, be resolved on this forum) I suggest that we call a temporary truce. Nearly all of us have the same cultural values including an abhorrence for abortion, a desire to raise our children free from intrusive and pervasive immorality, a revulsion at the "gay" deathstyle, and a desire to express our religious convictions publicly without threat of punishment.

If we continue on our current trajectory, is there any doubt that Christians will be reduced to the status of second class citizens? There are already whiffs of persecution emanating from Canada and some European countries. Are you truly prepared to face this threat if it arrives here? Of course, there is something to be said for being imprisoned and stripped of your family and possessions for expressing your Christian beliefs. But how many of us in our soft communities are ready to face the same trials that routinely confronted our early saints?

I maintain that there is much we can do to turn the tide. First and foremost, taking a cue from the citizens of Nineveh, we should put on sack-cloth and ashes (at least figuratively, if not literally) and seek personal repentence. Second, we must get active. If you're already active, prepare to become moreso.

The activity I'm proposing is not simply political, though that is a part of it. It needs to be evangelical--I accuse myself and my Church in general of going mainly soft on this issue. Indeed, many of the most celebrated evangelical Catholics are converts (!) And for you Evangelical Protestants, I challenge you to turn your fervor away from trying to convert pious and believing Catholics and train your theological cannons on the great and growing mass of secularized, sexualized youth. In short, I believe that a new, powerful burst of evangelization is the only thing that can save Western civilization from the otherwise unavoidable implosion of anarchy.

At any rate, if you think I'm being ridiculous or overstating the problem, just imagine we were back in 1990 and I told you that within 15 years, the Supreme Court would declare sodomy to be a constitutional right and that Canada would consider two homosexual men the moral equivalent of marriage.

If we unite, we can win. If we stay divided, we cede the victory to the forces of darkness. Your choice.

John answered him, saying: Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, who followeth not us: and we forbade him. But Jesus said: Do not forbid him. For there is no man that doth a miracle in my name and can soon speak ill of me. For he that is not against you is for you. (Mark 9:38)

Young people have very little expectation of life improving today. Talk to them - find out.

We homeschooled our kids and they turned out fine, they both own their own business, if ya have any you should try it in your own back yard

The majority of young people expect life to worsen in this country. They expect their own lot to worsen. Why?

Why? Because they listen to doom and gloomers like you.

Yet, acting as if the darkness does not exist or is not worsening is as foolish as living in the darkness without shining the light of Jesus Christ into it!

You should get out more.

BigMack

It needs to be evangelical--I accuse myself and my Church in general of going mainly soft on this issue. Indeed, many of the most celebrated evangelical Catholics are converts (!) And for you Evangelical Protestants, I challenge you to turn your fervor away from trying to convert pious and believing Catholics and train your theological cannons on the great and growing mass of secularized, sexualized youth.

No thanks, Antoninus - not on the terms you suggest, anyway. But you're welcome to fall in line behind folks like BigMack & I any time you'd like :)

Dear Alex Murphy,

I think that you've misconstrued Antoninus remarks. Read the first part of the paragraph you quote:

"It needs to be evangelical--I accuse myself and my Church in general of going mainly soft on this issue."

The first thing he concedes is that the very essence of Evangelical Protestantism, their evangelical nature, is often lacking amongst us Catholic. You may disagree with this, but as a fellow Catholic, I think Antoninus has a good point. He is saying that we Catholics are insufficiently zealous in our efforts to spread the Gospel, to offer affirmative, explicit opportunities for folks to hear the Gospel and be converted by the Holy Spirit. He is also praising Evangelicals for this very thing. He is saying that Evangelicals have a special gift, a special charism, that we Catholic ought to seek after more.

Then, he says:

"And for you Evangelical Protestants, I challenge you to turn your fervor away from trying to convert pious and believing Catholics and train your theological cannons on the great and growing mass of secularized, sexualized youth."

After praising Evangelicals for something in which he believes Catholics are weak, he then asks that Evangelicals use this gift where it is needed more, not amongst your Catholic brothers and sisters, but among those who are essentially pagans.

Since he has just finished criticizing Catholics for being weak in this regard, it wouldn't make a lot of sense to then say that Catholics ought to stop what we don't do so much of, anyway.

Whether you agree with his assessment or not, it would help if you read his remarks in Christian charity, rather than in unChristian cynicism. It would also be more accurate.

"But you're welcome to fall in line behind folks like BigMack & I any time you'd like :) "

LOL. Gee whiz, and you criticize us for following the POPE!

sitetest

Well first of all... blessed are the peacemakers.

That said, evangelical behavior is exactly the cause of most of the dissention on this forum, imo. I'd love to see some friendship across the lines of differences in doctrine.
If you think your church is the only road to salvation and a must-have for everyone else, you might as well hang it up right now.

Case in point, you have already offended one person with your suggestion. The only way all Christians are going to get along is if they stop trying to convert other Christians, learn to respect them instead, and see us all as on the same path with the same Lord. If anyone here is interested in changing churches, they know where to look in the yellow pages. Let's assume they are capable of doing this or freepmailing someone and asking questions.

And an atmosphere of sharing versus comparing and putting forth ideas as superior wouldn't hurt either. We should say "this is what we believe and cherish" instead of "this is what Christ said you must do". If you are going to post Scripture, frame it within your personal or church beliefs. Not all us accept the same meanings for parables, for instance. If we did there would probably be one church today instead of how many zillion...

Dear drstevej,

Theological disputation and efforts at evangelization come in various flavors here at FR. You are a kind, courteous poster, and I certainly try to be when posting to others who are not Catholic.

That doesn't mean that either of us isn't evangelizing. Even each other. ;-)

But it can be done in a way that doesn't promote war.

And the question is, are we able to "throttle down" a bit our attempts to persuade the other to come home to Rome (Dordt? Westminster?? Constantinople??? Geneva????) and "throttle up" the shared effort to repair the damage done to our society?

You tell me. And Antoninus.

sitetest

I appreciate your comments and the gracious way you respond to me. I would agree that a WWF smackdown between Protestants and Catholics is unproductive.

I also agree that there is a need for us to join together in opposing some of the moral ills infesting our nation and seeking to exert moral leverage.

However, The great commission involves communication not only the gospel but all that Christ has commanded. I will not shrink back from that commission.

ECT (Evangelicals and Catholics Together) made the same offer as Antonius. I considered it a colossial mistake. It assumed that Protestants and Catholics agreed on the gospel.

My reaction when ECT was first published was, if this document is signed it in essence acknowledges that the Reformation was a mistake. It blurs the differences theologically between historic Protestantism and Trent.

The issues that separate Rome and Protestantism are too important to ignore or capitulate.

God seeks those who worship in Spirit and Truth. Truth isn't an option. Our nation will be restored if and only if Christ's disciples take the great commission seriously rather than compromise it.

Who said I was offended? I just pointed out that the terms of the truce were either not thought out well, or unfairly slanted towards Rome. Besides, your solution would'd work either for similar reasons:

A) We don't all agree on what constitutes being Christians,
B) We don't all agree on our "being on the same path", or even what that path is,
C) We don't all agree on what the core problems are in Western civilization,
D) We don't all agree on what the solutions are to those problems, and
E) Some of us might think that the others are actually contributing to the problem with their proposed solution.

Hence, the efforts towards evangelizing by some or all parties. If you don't think your chosen faith offers the only road to salvation, and isn't a must-have for everyone else, you might as well hang it up right now -or at least consult the yellow pages and find a better one. I'm all for forging friendships and (limited) alliances. I'm just convinced we shouldn't deny (or compromise) Christ's lordship for the sake of human relationships.

ECT (Evangelicals and Catholics Together) made the same offer as Antonius. I considered it a colossial mistake. It assumed that Protestants and Catholics agreed on the gospel.

Amen.

The issues that separate Rome and Protestantism are too important to ignore or capitulate.

Amen.

God seeks those who worship in Spirit and Truth. Truth isn't an option. Our nation will be restored if and only if Christ's disciples take the great commission seriously rather than compromise it.

Amen.

Even though you and I don't agree on something that can't be ignored also:), you said all this very well and very gracefully.

Becky

Are you suggesting that appeals (including television programs) for Protestants to come home to Rome should be discontinued? Are you suggesting that Cyprian was wrong when he said that those who do not have the Church for their Mother do not have God as their Father? Are you suggesting that the Council of Trent was wrong in anathematizing Protestant theology? Are you frustrated by the efforts of Scott Hahn and Gerry Matatics to bring Protestants into the Roman fold? This Protestant Goose would like to know if you, my Gander friend, think this is good for BOTH sides.

I am suggesting none of those things. I recognize that there are differences between Protestants and Catholics that have remained insoluble for nearly 500 years. We will continue to debate, hopefully with more charity and less hostility. But you must realize that while are busy attacking each other with brilliant one-liners and grim tirades, the wheels are coming off Christian civilization as we have known it.

What I am proposing is that spending hours and hours navel-gazing amongst ourselves at the present time is not productive. I tried to count how many Protestants or Catholics have "changed teams" thanks to the various debates on FR. I can't think of one, despite a certain thread with over 50,000 posts on it... Can you? Think of how much more productive it would have been to spend the hundreds of hours that thread represents witnessing to young people who have no other conduit to Christ.

And really, in the long run what do you think is more pleasing to Christ: convincing one Catholic to stop praying to Mary (or for a Catholic, convincing one Protestant that scripture is not the sole source of divine revelation), or bringing the Word to a hundred young people who's only previous knowledge of It was the nasty caricature presented in movies or TV?

For me personally, I've decided to shift my focus and direct my energies toward places where they are more urgently needed. I don't pretend to speak for anyone else, however.

***For me personally, I've decided to shift my focus and direct my energies toward places where they are more urgently needed.***

Go for it.

I would suggest that you underestimate the importance of the issues which separate Catholicism and Protestantism. Issues which are at the heart of the gospel.

I know plenty of people who have grown in their understanding of doctrine through these threads. And I know at least one who has come to Christ through a discussion initiated online and continued offline.

Evangelism is a biblical endeavor which I would not want to diminish. However the same is true of discipleship.

I noticed you don't call for the Catholics to stop trying to evangelize & convert the Protestants. Real nice truce you propose there. Frankly, I suggest that you Catholics train your theological cannons on the great and growing mass of secularized, sexualized Catholic nuns, priests, bishops, and cardinals that burden your ranks and corrupt the RCC's reputation.

Perhaps my statement was ill-made or perhaps you misunderstood it. If you've followed any of the Catholic threads over the past year, you'd know that cleaning the snakes out from under our own porch has been a primary concern for many Catholic Freepers. So your point is well taken, and all I can say is, we're working on it.

In terms of Catholics evangelizing to Protestants, I should point out that most of the Catholic outreach efforts are made to try to fend off Protestant inroads and provide Catholic responses to common queries posed by those trying to convert the great mass of the poorly catechised. In my opinion, our Church has done a generally lousy job of spreading the Gospel, at least during my lifetime. And for what it's worth, I don't think our primary goal at this time should be to convert Protestants. I'm content to postpone those debates until after we've won the Culture War.

I think your ideas are very much in sync with mine. I believe western civilization and Christianity have been in a downward spiral,driven,orchestrated and administered by those who would like to replace the transcendent,creator,Triune God with man as god.

I also believe that His son,Jesus Christ,in what He said and what He did,left us with all that we need to bring us home to the Father.That said,I agree that all who accept Jesus as the Way and the Truth and the Life,or those ,who without knowing the specific Son of God,nonetheless,live as He did must work together to to discern and to do His Will.

Thanks for your thoughtful,timely and needed comments.

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.