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The Hebrew View of the Law/Torah and Salvation
www.yashanet.com ^ | January 2, 2000 | Yashanet Staff

Posted on 06/27/2003 9:17:43 AM PDT by NinjaDetective

"Not Subject to the Law of God?"

Part 2. The Hebrew View of the Law/Torah and Salvation

Terminology

We begin with what Christianity calls "the Law," but in Judaism is called the Torah -- the term given to the first five books of the Bible. This is also referred to by Christians as the "Pentateuch" (a Greek term). The term "Law," especially in the legal sense as the western mind understands it, is not an appropriate translation of the word "Torah." A correct translation of Torah is "instruction" or "revelation" -- as in "God's instruction," or "revelation from God." This is how the Torah is presented in Judaism.

The Torah is a revelation of the character of God as well as an insight of what is to come. The Torah is God's instruction on how those who place their trust in Him (Jew or gentile) are to live, so that "all will be well with them." (Deuteronomy 4:40) Verses such as Exodus 12:48-49, Leviticus 24:22 and Isaiah chapter 56, show that the Torah was not strictly for the Hebrews, but also for those Gentiles who wanted to be part of God's people. Although God chose to present His revelation through the Jewish people, it was not to be solely "their religion." They were to be a "light to the world," and bring this revelation to the Gentiles, as Yeshua reminded them in His sermon of Matthew chapter 5.

Though the Torah proper is the five books of Moses (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy), the term "Torah" can also include the rest of the Tenakh (commonly called the "Old Testament") and the books of the "New Testament," in that they are God's continued revelation/instruction. None of God's later revelation in the rest of the Tenakh (the Prophets & Writings) contradicts the Torah, and none of the "New Testament" contradicts the Torah, Prophets or Writings. God's word is one.

What Does the Tenakh say about the Torah, Forgiveness of Sin, and Salvation?

Unlike the movie, "Back to the Future," we will for the purpose of this study of the Torah, go "forward into the past." In the Gospel of John chapter 3, we have one of the foundational verses of "faith-based Christianity:"

"You must be born again."

Christians tout this as a preeminent "faith teaching of Jesus." Notice however, what the Messiah says to Nicodemus when the latter asks, "How can these things be?"

Yeshua replies to him: "Are you the teacher of Israel and do not know these things?"

Nicodemus is criticized by the Messiah, who says that as a "teacher of Israel," he should have known about being "born again." Now how would Nicodemus know about this if it was a new teaching of Yeshua?

The answer is that "being born again" is not an original teaching from Yeshua and the launching point for some new Christian faith. Being born again was and is fundamental to Torah-based Judaism, as the message of the Torah has always been to have faith in God for salvation and not "work your way."

This can be seen in the book of Deuteronomy:

Deuteronomy 10:16 -- "Therefore circumcise the foreskin of your heart, and be stiffnecked no longer."

The term "stiffnecked" is equivalent to not having faith. God called the generation in the wilderness stiffnecked because they failed to trust (have faith) in Him. (See Exodus 32:9; 33:3,5; 34:9, Deut. 9:6,13; 2 Chron. 30:8; Acts 7:51)

Hebrews 3:7-4:2, commenting on these same stiffnecked people, said they received the Gospel but failed as they did not "mix it with faith," and "went astray in their hearts."

Deuteronomy 30:6 -- "And the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live."

Here the word "live" is used in a spiritual sense and is equivalent to salvation.

The epistles show that "circumcision of the heart" is the equivalent of "being born again":

Romans 2:29 -- "But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart ..."

Colossians 2:11 -- "In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands ..."

God has always asked that we first recognize and trust in Him before trying to "do" anything for Him. To have faith/trust in Him is the "first commandment."

Exodus 20:2-3 & Deuteronomy 5:6-7 -- I am the Lord your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before Me.

Habakkuk 2:4 & Romans 1:17 -- "The righteous live by faith." (Paul quotes this "Old Testament" verse in Romans to make his point.)

Hebrews 11:6 -- "Without faith it is impossible to please Him." (This chapter then goes on to list those who "followed the Law," such as; Moses, David and Samuel)

Yeshua continues His discussion with Nicodemus, speaking of His ascending to heaven (John 3:12-13), thus linking the Torah, (as God spoke about it in Deuteronomy 30:11-14), with Himself (as Paul wrote in Romans 10:1-8). Yeshua concludes his discussion by pointing to the incident of the Children of Israel looking upon the bronze serpent and living (John 3:14) as a faith issue (Numbers 21:9) comparing that to faith in Himself.

God does not change. Salvation in Torah-based Judaism has always been by faith, both before Moses and after him, as well as before Yeshua and after Him. The Torah is God's revelation, as Yeshua is also God's revelation. Faith, Torah and Yeshua are inseparable. Salvation was always through faith, Messiah and Torah, as Yeshua is the lamb slain since the foundation of the world (Hebrews 4:3, 9:26; Rev. 13:8). Yeshua Himself said:

John 8:56 -- "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it, and was glad."

Yeshua is the goal of the Torah (Romans 10:4, see the section below, "Making the Hebrew Connection: Torah and Messiah.") Yeshua is the Torah in the flesh -- the point of John 1:1.

The reason most people don't see this when they read the "Old Testament," is because their understanding of, "what the Scriptures say," is affected by hundreds of years of theology formed by previous generations studying and interpreting the Hebrew Bible in a Hellenized (non-Hebrew) way. This "mindset" is not an easy thing to shake off (especially in the USA) as it is reinforced daily by family, friends, sermons, books, Christian TV programs, Christian holidays -- the entire culture we live in.

How and why the Bible has come to be interpreted in this fashion is discussed further in this document.

A Tenakh Example: How Was King David Saved?

In Hebrews chapter 11 -- the "Faith Hall of Fame" as some have called it, we find three interesting names from the Tenakh -- Moses, David and Samuel. The book of Hebrews says they were saved by faith, even though they were well known for following the Torah.

In writing Psalm 119, David can't say enough about following the Torah. But, according to Christian theology, there is a dilemma with regard to what he writes.

David writes the following about himself:

Psalm 119:22 -- "Take away from me reproach and contempt, for I have kept your testimonies." Psalm 119:51 -- "... yet have I not declined in my interest or turned aside from your Law." Psalm 119:56 -- "I have kept your precepts ..." Psalm 119:102 -- "I have not turned aside from your ordinances ..." Psalm 119:121 -- "I have done justice and righteousness ..."

Is this the same David that committed adultery with Bathsheba and had Uriah murdered? Not to mention a number of other documented violations of the Torah. According to Christian theology, David is clearly a liar. How can he claim to have followed "the Law," when we all know how he broke it in some terrible ways? To add to the "confusion," God Himself calls David, "a man after His own heart." (1 Samuel 13:14)

So is David a liar? Perhaps God is making an "exception" for him?

There is a hint of the answer found in Psalm 119 itself:

Psalm 119:159 -- "Consider how I love your precepts; revive me and give life to me, O Lord, according to your loving kindness."

The term "loving kindness" is hesed in Hebrew, and is the equivalent of the word grace in the "New Testament." David knew he was saved by God's grace -- NOT by keeping all the commandments perfectly, but rather by what he says at the beginning of the verse; "Consider how I love your precepts ..."

An interesting question to ask is, "Why does God save us?" The typical reply might be, "So we won't go to hell." That may be true, but it's an incomplete answer. In fact, God saves us so that we can perform the commandments (mitzvot) of His Torah in this lifetime. Our performing God's mitzvot is part of His desire to return us back into a correct relationship, the purpose and intent of mankind, as first seen in the Garden of Eden (Gan Eden).

(Taking it a step further, one could ask, why did Yeshua say, "we would always have the poor?" (Matthew 26:11) Part of the answer is so that we would be able to perform the mitzvot of charity!) (9)

Psalm 119 shows David asking to be saved so that he could then follow God's Torah. God judged David on his faith AND desire to follow the Torah, NOT on his ability to keep every point of it. No one has ever been "saved" by their ability to keep Torah, nor has that ever been an option for salvation.

The idea that Torah-based Judaism taught that anyone was ever saved by works is false. Throughout the ages there have indeed been those in Judaism who have taught incorrectly. The behavior of specific individuals or groups does not change what Torah-based Judaism has always taught. Even the error of the Jewish leaders at the time of Yeshua does not make Christianity, or any other religion correct. (Let God be true but every man be a liar -- Romans 3:4.) The only thing that is "right," is what God Himself established.

Faith and desire to follow His Torah are inseparable according to God.

Why is this so?

God says what He wants from us ... to fear Him, walk in His ways, to love Him and to serve Him with all your heart and soul (Deuteronomy 10:12) -- "His ways" were given in the Torah. However, you cannot walk in His ways (follow the Torah) without faith (Hebrews 10:38) Salvation "Under the Law"

Let us examine the aforementioned quote by Christian author, Norman Geisler:

While Moses set up the moral and social structures that guided the nation, the Law could not save anyone from the penalty of their sins, which is death. As Paul says, 'By the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin' (Rom 3:20). The revelation which came through Jesus, though, was one in which the sins which the Law made known are forgiven, 'being justified as a gift by his grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus' (v. 24). Christ's revelation builds on the foundation of Moses by solving the problem of which the Law made us aware.

Geisler's statement summarizes Christianity's view of the Torah, forgiveness of sin and salvation:

There was no actual forgiveness and true salvation before Yeshua, when people were "under the Law," as all the Law could do was expose sin. Forgiveness came only when Jesus arrived on the scene. Scripture has something different to say on the subject however, with God Himself making it clear that forgiveness was attainable long before Yeshua's death and resurrection:

Isaiah 1:18 -- Come now and let us reason together says the Lord, Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow.

Strong's Concordance shows that there are more references to God forgiving sin in the book Leviticus, than in any other book in the Bible. Perhaps God wasn't serious all those times He told people that their sins were forgiven when they did what He told them to do, in faith?

An argument is made by some that the sacrifices in the "Old Testament" didn't really forgive sin, (even though the words of the Bible say they did). Rather, they merely provided a "covering" for people's sins. Unfortunately, there is nothing in Scripture that supports this idea, or indicates we should not believe what we read when God says their sins were forgiven. Attempts to prove otherwise always stem from pulling verses out of their context.

For example:

Hebrews 10:4 -- "For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sin."

The problem here is that this verse is in the specific context of the Yom Kippur sacrifice - not the daily sacrificial system in general. Christianity does not understand the difference between the two and completely misses the point of the letter of Hebrews. (See the section below, "Christianity's Difficulty With the Law," for more about Yom Kippur and the book of Hebrews.)

Another Christian teaching is that until "Jesus' victory at the cross," we were totally powerless against sin. If that is true, why did God tell Cain, the son of Adam, that he could win out over sin:

Genesis 4:7 -- "If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it."

The fact that people could be considered righteous and blameless in God's sight, before Yeshua's death, is shown as early as Cain (above), through the Tenakh (i.e., David), right up to before Yeshua's birth, where in the "New Testament," Scripture says of the parents of "John the baptist":

Luke 1:6 -- "And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless."

According to Christian doctrine, how could these people be considered righteous, "according to the Law," prior to "Jesus' work on the cross?"

Why did God Give the Torah at Mount Sinai?

If salvation was always attainable by faith from the time of Adam, and the Torah (God's word), was also always in existence (John 1:1), then why did God give the Torah (as we have it in the Bible) to Moses at Mount Sinai?

The short answer is; Out of mercy.

First, recall the days of Noah. Man had become so sinful that God, after first removing the righteous (Torah-observant) people, such as Enoch and Methuselah, spared Noah and seven others to repopulate the earth. However, before He did this, out of mercy, He gave man 120 years to repent. (Genesis 6:1-8) They failed and the flood came. Note that Noah knew what animals were unclean (Genesis 7:2), even though this was well before Moses received the Torah which contained those instructions. Therefore, we know that God's revelation of the Torah, in some way, was given to man from the beginning.

Skip ahead ten generations to Abraham's time. God makes Abraham a promise to inherit certain lands that are presently occupied by evil people. However, God tells him that the time for their destruction has not yet arrived, as they have not reached the fullness of their wickedness (Genesis 15:16). God, out of mercy, gave those people another 400 years to turn from sin back to Him -- which they did not do.

Finally, move forward to the arrival of the Yeshua the Messiah. "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son ..." (John 3:16) We all know the rest of that verse. Again, God acts out of mercy. Man has continually strayed from God. Ignorance of God's will, His Torah, is no excuse. That is why God, in the Torah he gave Moses, prescribed sacrifices for sins done in ignorance of the Torah.

God, in His mercy, hasn't destroyed the earth every other generation since Noah, or continually struck individuals with lightning bolts -- though some may have deserved it. Yeshua has been involved here, acting as a propitiation (an advocate or buffer) between God and man -- not only for believers, but also for the rest of the world. (1 John 2:2) Scripture tells us that the Lord's salvation was done at the foundation of the world. The idea of the Messiah's work being "done" thousands of years before His earthly crucifixion and resurrection, may be hard for some to grasp, however God does not work within the concept of time as we relate to it.

To summarize; the Torah at Sinai was given out of mercy and for several related purposes:

To give guidance, as man's sin was getting so bad To "stir up" sin in man, in that given a "line to cross," human nature will be tempted to do so (Romans 7:7-11) To make man realize how he falls short of God's holiness To point man to God, whom he must trust for salvation, as trust in God is "Commandment #1" The Torah was also given to show man how to live for God and with your neighbor (Matthew 22:37-40). The fact that we have faith in Yeshua does not void what the Torah says about HOW to do this. Christianity teaches that we don't have to follow the Torah, as Jesus nullified its specifics by summarizing everything in the two commandments that He gave in this Matthew verse. Instead of following God's revelation (the Torah), Christianity says we now have "liberty from the Law." We now follow something called "the law of love" or "law of Christ." Christianity says we are now "led by the Spirit" and no longer subject to "the Law."

Did God Give His People an "Impossible Task?"

As previously outlined, Christianity, in one form or another, teaches that God gave Moses and His people a list of commandments they were to obey perfectly in order to be saved, but as sinful humans, they could not keep these. Therefore, there was no way to "follow the Law" until Jesus arrived to usher in the "era of grace"-- 1300 years later.

According to this theology, God told His people to do something He knew they could not do, with the stipulation that if they failed, they were damned.

Is God a sadist? Of course not. Yeshua Himself said that even we, being evil, treat our children fairly, and that God treats us better than any of us treat our own. Yet some form of this perverse idea is taught throughout Christianity's denominations.

Examine what God Himself said when He gave the Torah:

Deuteronomy 30:11-14 -- "For this commandment which I command you today is not too mysterious for you, nor is it far off. It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will ascend into heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?' Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it.' But the word is very near to you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may do it."

God Himself makes it clear -- He told His people that the Law was not too hard for them to follow.


TOPICS: Catholic; Evangelical Christian; Judaism; Mainline Protestant; Religion & Culture; Theology; Worship
KEYWORDS: gentiles; israel; judaism; law; messianic; torah
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Comments?
1 posted on 06/27/2003 9:17:44 AM PDT by NinjaDetective
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To: NinjaDetective
read and comment later
2 posted on 06/27/2003 12:56:46 PM PDT by LiteKeeper
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To: NinjaDetective
bump!
3 posted on 06/27/2003 4:08:21 PM PDT by NinjaDetective
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To: NinjaDetective
Only comment I have is that I can't see anything in the article I disagree with. :-)
4 posted on 06/27/2003 4:44:46 PM PDT by Invincibly Ignorant
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To: NinjaDetective
If we can agree that the thing that separates man from God is "sin" then I think the following two scriptures from Zechariah are relevent:

Zec 12: 10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

also,

Zec 13:1 In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.

Setting aside the prophecy of Jesus for a moment let's just consider this part:

"I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications . . . In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness"

What we see is that this "fountain" of the "SPIRIT of grace" would be for "sin and uncleanness." It is this spirit of grace that is necessary to truly rid sin from our minds. Under the Law, grace had not yet been "poured out." There was a deeper depth of spirit -- the grace depth -- yet to come.

The new testament tells us this was available at the time of Christ:

Joh 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Jesus FULFILLED the Law -- yes, the Law contained the seeds of salvation but it took the watering that comes with the spirit of grace to bring salvation to fruition.

5 posted on 06/28/2003 5:50:44 AM PDT by stranger and pilgrim
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To: stranger and pilgrim
Did you read section about Psalm 119:159? David knew that he was saved by God's grace. Did grace only exist only after Jesus died?

Also Zechariah chapter 12 has to do with a period in time in the future where all the nations of the earth will gathered against Jerusalem and the Lord will destroy all those nations who gather against Jerusalem. I believe that this pouring of grace and supplications hasn't happened yet at this moment but will.
6 posted on 06/28/2003 9:44:44 AM PDT by NinjaDetective
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To: NinjaDetective
"Also Zechariah chapter 12 has to do with a period in time in the future where all the nations of the earth will gathered against Jerusalem and the Lord will destroy all those nations who gather against Jerusalem. I believe that this pouring of grace and supplications hasn't happened yet at this moment but will."

The "nations" of the "earth" have ALWAYS been gathered together against "Jerusalem." And I can assure you this outpouring of grace not only HAS happened but IS happening.

7 posted on 06/28/2003 10:55:36 AM PDT by stranger and pilgrim
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To: NinjaDetective
The Torah is a revelation of the character of God as well as an insight of what is to come. The Torah is God's instruction on how those who place their trust in Him (Jew or gentile) are to live, so that "all will be well with them." (Deuteronomy 4:40) Verses such as Exodus 12:48-49, Leviticus 24:22 and Isaiah chapter 56, show that the Torah was not strictly for the Hebrews, but also for those Gentiles who wanted to be part of God's people. Although God chose to present His revelation through the Jewish people, it was not to be solely "their religion." They were to be a "light to the world," and bring this revelation to the Gentiles, as Yeshua reminded them in His sermon of Matthew chapter 5.

Yep. The gentiles were to be grafted unto Israel this way, and not Israel being grafted unto a gentile church.

Good article, thanks for posting it.

8 posted on 06/28/2003 11:01:39 AM PDT by ET(end tyranny) ( Luke 16:17 -- And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.)
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To: stranger and pilgrim
Do you know what 'new testament' means?

testament and covenant both bring up 1242 from the Greek
1242
diatheke dee-ath-ay'-kay from 1303; properly, a disposition, i.e. (specially) a contract (especially a devisory will):--covenant, testament.
1) a disposition, arrangement, of any sort, which one wishes to be valid, the last disposition which one makes of his earthly possessions after his death, a testament or will
2) a compact, a covenant, a testament
   a) God's covenant with Noah, etc.

Notice it does NOT say the church!

Do the actual words in the Greek Scriptures show us that a "testament" is made between God and the Church?   NOPE!

It does mention the covenant with Noah though.....


Hebrews 8
10   For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Hebrews 8:10 says: "For THIS the covenant," and then quotes from Jer. 31:33.
Hebrews 8
10   For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

this from the Greek
3778
houtos hoo'-tos, including nominative masculine plural houtoi hoo'-toy, nominative feminine singular haute how'-tay, and nominative feminine plural hautai how'-tahee from the article 3588 and 846; the he (she or it), i.e. this or that (often with article repeated):--he (it was that), hereof, it, she, such as, the same, these, they, this (man, same, woman), which, who.
1) this, these, etc.

846 autos ow-tos' from the particle au (perhaps akin to the base of 109 through the idea of a baffling wind) (backward); the reflexive pronoun self, used (alone or in the comparative 1438) of the third person , and (with the proper personal pronoun) of the other persons:--her, it(-self), one, the other, (mine) own, said, (self-), the) same, ((him-, my-, thy- )self, (your-)selves, she, that, their(-s), them(-selves), there(-at, - by, -in, -into, -of, -on, -with), they, (these) things, this (man), those, together, very, which.
1)
himself, herself, themselves, itself
2)
he, she, it
3) the same

In other words, "this---same" covenant, as was spoken by Jeremiah has now been RENEWED .... NOT REPLACED!  THE SAME COVENANT, WITH ITS LAWS AND COMMANDMENTS WHICH ARE ITS COVENANT STIPULATIONS.

Jeremiah 31
31   Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Is this "new/SAME covenant" made with the Christian Gentile Church or with descendants of the Tribes of Jacob of the House of Judah and Ephraim (comprising the Ten Northern Tribes of Jacob)?

9 posted on 06/28/2003 11:30:37 AM PDT by ET(end tyranny) ( Luke 16:17 -- And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.)
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To: stranger and pilgrim
But have all those nations been completely destroyed by the Lord as it says in chapter 12. I don't think this event has happpened yet.
10 posted on 06/28/2003 12:06:38 PM PDT by NinjaDetective
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To: NinjaDetective
NinjaDetective writes: "But have all those nations been completely destroyed by the Lord as it says in chapter 12. I don't think this event has happpened yet. "



There is no natural nation on the Earth that is holy -- all are full of sin. The only holy nation is the one that God builds within our own mind. It is here that the "nations of the earth" are defeated:

2 Co 10: 3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)
5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

and

Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

These two scripture sets are directly on point and, essentially, define the difference between the old testament./Law depth and the new testament/Grace depth. These sorts of intensely personal battles were not possible under the Law -- and thus the enemy could never be wholy defeated under the Law. It is only with grace power in the depth that Christ brought that man can truly be redeemed.

Lu 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.



11 posted on 06/28/2003 1:54:18 PM PDT by stranger and pilgrim
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To: ET(end tyranny)
ET(end tyranny) writes:

"Do you know what 'new testament' means? . . . snip . . . Notice it does NOT say the church"

It might help me if you quoted some portion of my comment you are responding to. I don't see where I said anything about "the church." Actually, I'm not sure I understand what your point is.

Perhaps we can agree that God deals with his people, Israel. The question is what and who is Israel?
12 posted on 06/28/2003 2:01:29 PM PDT by stranger and pilgrim
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To: stranger and pilgrim
No 'new' covenant. It's the same covenant, just that instead of the LAW being written on stone, the LAW will be upon the hearts of men.

Jeremiah 31
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

See THAT??? The LAW is still there. Just as Jesus said... the heavens and the earth will pass away before one jot or one tittle of the law fades. Heaven and earth are still here.

And:

Luke 16:17 -- And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

13 posted on 06/28/2003 2:06:56 PM PDT by ET(end tyranny) ( Luke 16:17 -- And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.)
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To: stranger and pilgrim
Since your post was about the new testament... I thought my post pertaining to the meaning of 'testament' was rather self explanatory as to what part of your post I was replying to!

The question is what and who is Israel?

Glad you asked.

The prophesy recorded in Jeremiah 31 is directed to both the House of Israel, which consists of the Northern Ten Tribes of Israel, and the House of Judah.

Jeremiah 30
4   And these are the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah.

Then follows the now familiar pattern of the need for punishment upon both Houses of Israel by military defeat and scattering in exile, but resulting in the complete accomplishment of God's purposes by their eventual regathering as being seen today in both Jewish and Christian circles.

10   Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid.
11   For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet I will not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.

It's futile to try to make this prophecy refer to the Christian Church because in no time in its history was the Christian Church punished by scattering, exile, and captivity as was the Tribes of Israel?

24  The fierce anger of the LORD shall not return, until he hath done it, and until he have performed the intents of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it.

These words bring to mind a parallel passage in the Book of Isaiah 27:8-9

From the KJV
Isaiah 27
8   In measure, when it shooteth forth, thou wilt debate with it: he stayeth his rough wind in the day of the east wind.
9   By this therefore shall the iniquity of Jacob be purged; and this is all the fruit to take away his sin; when he maketh all the stones of the altar as chalkstones that are beaten in sunder, the groves and images shall not stand up.

From the JPS (1917) Jewish Bible Tanakh
8  In full measure, when Thou sendest her away, Thou dost contend with her; He hath removed her with His rough blast in the day of the east wind.
9  Therefore by this shall the iniquity of Jacob be expiated, and this is all the fruit of taking away his sin: when he maketh all the stones of the altar as chalkstones that are beaten in pieces, so that the Asherim and the sun-images shall rise no more.

By this (exile and captivity) therefore shall the iniquity of Jacob be atoned.  It is worth noting that Isaiah here indicates that the exile would serve as an atonement for the sins of the people. Such an idea of atonement for sins might come as a surprise to those used to thinking in Christian terms only.

Fortunately, God's plan does not end with punishment and abandonment of His people, Israel.  Jeremiah 31 starts out with the hopeful declaration of the LORD, Himself, "At that time (that is, "in the latter days," see Jeremiah 30-24)...I will be the God of all the families of Israel, and they shall be My people."

Jeremiah 31:1
At the same time, saith the LORD, will I be the God of all the families of Israel, and they shall be my people.

God promises the descendants of Israel (who, through captivity, exile, and intermarriage with Gentiles became assimilated and inculturated Gentiles today) that they will find "grace in the wilderness" (verse 2).

2   Thus saith the LORD, The people which were left of the sword found grace in the wilderness; even Israel, when I went to cause him to rest.

Followed by the most moving promise of all, "I have loved you with an everlasting love" (verse 3).

3   The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.

It would be a mistake, at this point, to assume that these promises are made only to the House of Judah, the Jewish people; on the contrary, read closely verses 5, 6, and 9b:

5   Thou shalt yet plant vines upon the mountains of Samaria: the planters shall plant, and shall eat them as common things.
6   For there shall be a day, that the watchmen upon the mount Ephraim shall cry, Arise ye, and let us go up to Zion unto the LORD our God.
9   They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.

These clear statements, made by the LORD, identify the primary audience. It was the Northern Ten Tribes who occupied Samaria/the hill country of Ephraim anciently, and who are prophesied to do so again.

These Ten Northern Tribes, who are frequently referred to in Scripture collectively as Ephraim, are called the LORD'S "first-born" (possibly an allusion to Genesis 48:14-20 and I Chronicles 5:1).

Genesis 48
14   And Israel stretched out his right hand, and laid it upon Ephraim's head, who was the younger, and his left hand upon Manasseh's head, guiding his hands wittingly; for Manasseh was the firstborn.
15   And he blessed Joseph, and said, God, before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the God which fed me all my life long unto this day,
16   The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.
17   And when Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, it displeased him: and he held up his father's hand, to remove it from Ephraim's head unto Manasseh's head.
18   And Joseph said unto his father, Not so, my father: for this is the firstborn; put thy right hand upon his head.
19   And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.
20   And he blessed them that day, saying, In thee shall Israel bless, saying, God make thee as Ephraim and as Manasseh: and he set Ephraim before Manasseh.


1 Chronicles 5
1   Now the sons of Reuben the firstborn of Israel, (for he was the firstborn; but forasmuch as he defiled his father's bed, his birthright was given unto the sons of Joseph the son of Israel: and the genealogy is not to be reckoned after the birthright.

The word of God to the descendants of Ephraim, the Northern Ten Tribes, is:

8   Behold, I will bring them from the north country, and gather them from the coasts of the earth, and with them the blind and the lame, the woman with child and her that travaileth with child together: a great company shall return thither.

And again, stated even more emphatically in verse 10:

10   Hear the word of the LORD, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock.


Notice the interesting wording here. These declarations are  made to the "coasts of the earth, and isles afar off," and the descendants of Israel are to be gathered from the remote parts of the earth.  These locations certainly lend evidence to current efforts to identify the descendants of the Ten Tribes with the Northwest European peoples and their colonies (America).

Proceeding to the next major section of Jeremiah 31, we encounter the passage:

15   Thus saith the LORD; A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation, and bitter weeping; Rachel weeping for her children refused to be comforted for her children, because they were not.

According to the historical books of the Bible, the Jewish people are primarily composed of descendants of the Tribes of Judah and Levi, and to a lesser extent Benjamin. Judah and Levi are the children of Leah, not of Rachel (Gen. 29:32-35). And while Benjamin was Rachel's son, she never got the chance to know him, as she died during his birth (Gen. 35:16-19).

But Rachel did give Jacob a son, whom Jacob loved very dearly, Joseph (Gen. 37:3).

It is this son Joseph and his children [Joseph remember had two sons….Manessah and Ephraim] whose descendants were taken in the Assyrian captivity and never returned to their land or their faith that Rachel is weeping over in Jeremiah 31:15.
16   Thus saith the LORD; Refrain thy voice from weeping, and thine eyes from tears: for thy work shall be rewarded, saith the LORD; and they shall come again from the land of the enemy.

What children are these?

17   And there is hope in thine end, saith the LORD, that thy children shall come again to their own border.
18   I have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself thus; Thou hast chastised me, and I was chastised, as a bullock unaccustomed to the yoke: turn thou me, and I shall be turned; for thou art the LORD my God.
19   Surely after that I was turned, I repented; and after that I was instructed, I smote upon my thigh: I was ashamed, yea, even confounded, because I did bear the reproach of my youth.
20   Is Ephraim my dear son? is he a pleasant child? for since I spake against him, I do earnestly remember him still: therefore my bowels are troubled for him; I will surely have mercy upon him, saith the LORD.

It is clear that it is The House of Israel/Ephraim/the Northern Ten Tribes which through intermarriage is melted into the Gentile gene pool of the world which is being referred to here, not the House of Judah/the Jews. If anyone is tempted to think that the term Ephraim is being employed here in a generic way to address all Israel, just glance down to verses 23, 24, and 27, where Judah is treated as distinct from Ephraim/the House of Israel.


31   Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Is this "new covenant" made with the Christian Gentile Church or with descendants of the Tribes of Jacob of the House of Judah and Ephraim (comprising the Ten Northern Tribes of Jacob)?

Let's say that you, as the Christian, are Ephraim and this prophecy applies to the Christian Church, then according to the timing of when God will make this "new covenant", can you say that this New Covenant is already made and existing because the Christians have been restored to the land of Israel and their ancestor's faith, or do most of Christianity today lay outside the land of Israel and have a belief system quite opposite to the Jewish Church of Jerusalem?

Note that this new covenant is not made with the Gentiles; neither is it made solely with the house of Judah, the Jews. Rather, it is a future promise that is guaranteed to the Jews and to their brothers, the descendants of Joseph/Ephraim (Jesus called these the "lost sheep of the House of Israel [Ephraim])

Was God talking through Jeremiah the Prophet to Baptists, Methodists, Catholics today, or was God speaking through Jeremiah to the House of Judah (Jews of the Tribe of Judah and Benjamin) and the House of Israel (consisting of the Ten other Tribes of Jacob)?

33   But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

God doesn't lie.

Could these promises be taken away from the physical descendants of Jacob/Israel and given instead to a group of Gentiles calling themselves "Christians" who reject the Laws of God let alone His appointed times such as Biblical Festivals and Sabbaths?

Are you grafted into Israel as Paul stated in Romans, or are you grated into a Gentile organization built upon Replacement Theology given to you by the early Gentile Catholic Church?

Matthew 10
5   These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6   But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7   And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.


Do you observe the Festivals and Sabbaths of the Lord and of Israel, or do you observe pagan holidays that have had Jesus' name affixed to them and have taken the place of what is commanded in Scripture?

Have you substituted the "day of the sun" (Sunday) for the Sabbath?

Are you, as Gentile Godfearers grafted into Israel, in fact part of Israel and the people of God or have you apostatized from truth, and practice a mixture of truth and error in Christianity as it stands today?

Are you the "remnant" among the Gentile nations who will be gathered as the "elect" and be presented at the Marriage Supper along with Judah-Benjamin, thus making up the Bride of Messiah, or will you be delegated to be the "servant-foolish bride" and be cast out of the Wedding Supper because Jesus, a Jew, in his own Torah, is commanded by his Father to not marry Gentiles! The only Gentile who will become a bride to Messiah is one, like Ruth, who said "your people will be my people and your God my God."

Is the "New Covenant" really NEW at all?

testament and covenant both bring up 1242 from the Greek
1242
diatheke dee-ath-ay'-kay from 1303; properly, a disposition, i.e. (specially) a contract (especially a devisory will):--covenant, testament.
1) a disposition, arrangement, of any sort, which one wishes to be valid, the last disposition which one makes of his earthly possessions after his death, a testament or will
2) a compact, a covenant, a testament
   a) God's covenant with Noah, etc.

Notice it does NOT say the church!

Do the actual words in the Greek Scriptures show us that a "testament" is made between God and the Church?   NOPE!

It does mention the covenant with Noah though.....


Hebrews 8
10   For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Hebrews 8:10 says: "For THIS the covenant," and then quotes from Jer. 31:33.
Hebrews 8
10   For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

this from the Greek
3778
houtos hoo'-tos, including nominative masculine plural houtoi hoo'-toy, nominative feminine singular haute how'-tay, and nominative feminine plural hautai how'-tahee from the article 3588 and 846; the he (she or it), i.e. this or that (often with article repeated):--he (it was that), hereof, it, she, such as, the same, these, they, this (man, same, woman), which, who.
1) this, these, etc.

846 autos ow-tos' from the particle au (perhaps akin to the base of 109 through the idea of a baffling wind) (backward); the reflexive pronoun self, used (alone or in the comparative 1438) of the third person , and (with the proper personal pronoun) of the other persons:--her, it(-self), one, the other, (mine) own, said, (self-), the) same, ((him-, my-, thy- )self, (your-)selves, she, that, their(-s), them(-selves), there(-at, - by, -in, -into, -of, -on, -with), they, (these) things, this (man), those, together, very, which.
1)
himself, herself, themselves, itself
2)
he, she, it
3) the same

In other words, "this---same" covenant, as was spoken by Jeremiah has now been RENEWED .... NOT REPLACED!  THE SAME COVENANT, WITH ITS LAWS AND COMMANDMENTS WHICH ARE ITS COVENANT STIPULATIONS.
   How do Gentiles, who once were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, who had no hope, and were without God in the world according to Eph. 2:12 become part of this "New/Same Covenant" of Jeremiah spoken about in the New Testament?  By being grafted into Israel and the faith of Israel which practices Sabbaths and Festivals, or by becoming members of various denominations and non-denominations which reject God's Biblical Feasts, Festivals, and Sabbaths?

Are you "in the faith" or just have "a" faith about something which God never gave mankind?

Jeremiah 31 states that the day will come when this "RENEWED" covenant will be made with "whom"?  Israel and Judah?  Or with Judah and the church which rejects the faith of Judah?

The answer to that question is "Israel and Judah".   Israel being understood as Ephraim who today are dispersed Gentiles worldwide who take the form of Christians to whom can be traced Jewish Roots all the way back to the Assyrian Captivity and whom reject paganism and paganized religious practices, (the very reason Ephraim was taken captive in the first place).

This "New" testament is often used to refer to a collection of books written by the Apostles. It isn't.  The collection of books commonly known as the New Testament has unfortunately replaced the Bible Jesus used and which the early church took to the Gentiles for almost 400 years before the Catholic Church created a document to establish their validity for doctrines which they taught that were often contradicted by the Torah and Tanakh (the Bible Jesus used and which was taken to the Gentiles in the Great Commission).   As I've shown above, the "New Testament/Covenant" is not NEW at all, but is a RENEWAL of the Old Testament/Covenant.

A covenant, or testament, is a contract between two parties. Webster's unabridged dictionary defines "testament" this way: "In law, a writing, under seal, containing the terms of agreement or contract between parties..."  

Because this is a legal document and has an impact on our lives, we certainly should be intimately familiar with what the terms of this covenant are. The collections of writings that we call the New Testament have been much too vague about the terms of this agreement.  Since most of the writings of the New Testament do not contain the terms of this covenant, it would be poor scholarship to refer to this collection of Apostolic Writings as the "New Testament,"  especially since there is no 'new' testament, but a RENEWAL of the Old Testament.     

Acts 15
28   For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29   That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

And even this reference to the agreement, is much too vague.  

Jeremiah 31
31   Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32   Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33   But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34   And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.


Jeremiah 31:31-34: "The time is coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new (renewed) covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. We must not forget that Israel had been dispersed, assimilated, and intermarried into Gentile nations for over 200 years when Jeremiah spoke this prophecy.

In other words, you cannot find the Tribes or descendants of Israel when Jeremiah spoke this prophecy, as these ten tribes were literally becoming "Gentiles-heathen" since their captivity and were no longer "God's people." Israel as a Torah practicing people was no more! Rather, the descendants of Abraham, once monotheists, were now polytheists like their captives, and began to adopt a new religious belief system of man's invention instead of God's revelation. They were losing their biblical roots, they were losing their Hebrew roots. Since Ephraim's captivity, the people of Israel were becoming inter-married with pagans, being influenced and yielding to paganism, accepting and replacing, or at least mixing pagan religious beliefs with those given to them by God at Sinai, thus no longer following the "faith once given to the saints".

This "same covenant," seen in Hebrews 8 would  not be like the covenant He made with their forefathers when He took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke his covenant.  This covenant He would make with the house of Israel after that time.   God would put his law (Torah) in their minds and write it on their hearts. He would be their God, and they would be his people.

Hebrews 8
8   For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9   Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10   For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

When those former Israelites (now inter-married and assimilated into Gentile nations where they were forgetting the faith of their fathers…Sabbaths and Festivals, like Christianity today) would once again be instructed concerning the covenants and laws of God, then the product of their hearing the Laws of God would burn the words in their "minds" which would then become engrafted into their hearts.  See Nehemiah, chapter 8, for a perfect example of former Jews, who when returned from captivity where they did not hear the Word of God and were influenced by pagan cultures, and had forgotten the Word of God; yet when taught by Ezra for the first time, cried, repented, and returned to God with broken hearts as this "renewed" Word was "written on their hearts" as they heard with their ears and understood with their minds.

Remember, the names of the parties that "WILL" make this covenant in the future. The first party is called "the house of Israel" (currently the house of Israel are dispersed and assimilated Gentiles when this prophecy was spoken by Jeremiah) and "Judah" (Judah was still in the land of Israel when Jeremiah prophesied, but would shortly be taken into Babylonian captivity). The other party to this "RENEWED" covenant is God.

So, if you (believing Christians) are not of the house of Israel or Judah, then this "new" or RENEWED covenant has no effect on you!  In other words, the Christian Church finds her validity as she is grafted into Israel, not the other way around, where Israel is being grafted into the Gentile church.

This contract cannot take effect until the Gentile Christian understands, believes, and practices the faith of Jesus. This contract cannot take effect until the Gentile Christian comes to the understanding and truly believes that he is grafted into Israel, thereby rightfully entering into the "renewed covenant" of Jer. 31.

This contract/covenant can only become effective when everyone knows the Lord.

34   And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

'Until everyone knows the Lord', means knowing and understanding His ways which are revealed in the covenant contract, the Torah (the first five books of the Bible which have not passed away in lieu of grace). Unfortunately most Christian churches teach that the LAW (our covenant contract) has passed away.  

We must understand that the Law is still in effect, only the Priesthood and the sacrifices which accompany the Priesthood have changed. We must understand and cherish our "marriage certificate with God," His Torah, His Law, and take our rightful place as Gentile believers as 'part' of Israel, and no longer allow ourselves to be tossed by every wind of doctrine by ascribing to replacement theology whereby we falsely believe the Christian Church has a covenant of its own to the exclusion of the covenants of Israel.

14 posted on 06/28/2003 2:19:20 PM PDT by ET(end tyranny) ( Luke 16:17 -- And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.)
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To: ET(end tyranny)
ET writes:

No 'new' covenant. It's the same covenant, just that instead of the LAW being written on stone, the LAW will be upon the hearts of men.

To which, I add:

I would agree it is the same covenent brought to a new depth. This is what the scriptures refer to as the "song of Moses" and the "song of the lamb." But that's a pretty big distinction. Written in tables of stone is the Law depth. Written in the heart is the promise fullfilled under the new testament.

You quoted Hebrews 8 in your earlier post. Take a look a little farther in Hebrews 9:

Heb 9:8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

The Law was a "figure" of things to come. It "could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience." It would take the blood (grace) of Christ to finally purge our conscience from dead works.

ET says:

>>See THAT??? The LAW is still there. Just as Jesus said... the heavens and the earth will pass away before one jot or one tittle of the law fades. Heaven and earth are still here. <<

John would differ on this point . . .

Rev 21:1 ¶ And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

The Law was one heaven. But that heaven is passed away in favor of a new heaven.
15 posted on 06/28/2003 2:33:25 PM PDT by stranger and pilgrim
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To: NinjaDetective
NinjaDective says:

"Did you read section about Psalm 119:159? David knew that he was saved by God's grace. Did grace only exist only after Jesus died? "

There are depths of grace. As John writes:"And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace." (Joh 1:16)
16 posted on 06/28/2003 2:37:32 PM PDT by stranger and pilgrim
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To: stranger and pilgrim
You refered me to Revelation, and I will suggest you take a good look at Revelation. The churches are admonished and told to REPENT!

Now, remember that the 'lost sheep' have become assimilated into the gentile/pagan churches.

Revelation 18:4
And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

God is calling His people to leave the churches and return to their faith. Judaism.

Revelation 2:9 I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Revelation 3:9
Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

If we still need more emphasis, more proof:

2 Corinthians 5
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

What did Paul mean by 'new creature'?

2937 ktisis ktis'-is from the root 2936; original formation (properly, the act; by implication, the thing, literally or figuratively):--building, creation, creature, ordinance.
1) the act of founding, establishing, building etc
a) the act of creating, creation
b) creation i.e. thing created
1) of individual things, beings, a creature, a creation
a) anything created
b) after a rabbinical usage (by which a man converted
from idolatry to Judaism was called)

c) the sum or aggregate of things created
c) institution, ordinance

2936 ktizo ktid'-zo probably akin to 2932 (through the idea of proprietorship of the manufacturer); to fabricate, i.e. found (form originally):--create, Creator, make.
1) to make habitable, to people, a place, region, island
a) to found a city, colony, state
2) to create
a) of God creating the worlds
b) to form, shape, i.e. to completely change or transform

Converting from idolatry to Judaism, showing God's proprietorship over us his creations.

When the Apostle Paul instructs Gentiles in Corinth to come to God through Jesus he intends them to become "new creatures" by leaving their idolatry and convert to Judaism and not Catholic or Protestant Christianity as we know it today.

The Sabbath will be observed in the millenium.

Isaiah 66
22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

See that? ALL will observe the Sabbath!

17 posted on 06/28/2003 2:54:41 PM PDT by ET(end tyranny) ( Luke 16:17 -- And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.)
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To: stranger and pilgrim
You seem to have forgotten:

Jeremiah 31 states that the day will come when this "RENEWED" covenant will be made with "whom"? Israel and Judah! Not with the church which rejects the faith of Judah!

18 posted on 06/28/2003 2:57:40 PM PDT by ET(end tyranny) ( Luke 16:17 -- And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.)
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To: ET(end tyranny)
>>It's futile to try to make this prophecy refer to the Christian Church because in no time in its history was the Christian Church punished by scattering, exile, and captivity as was the Tribes of Israel? <<

I said nothing about the "Christian Church." I said Israel is God's people -- those that seek after him and follow him (no matter where he moves). Christian and Jew are religions, nothing more.

Gal 3:28 "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

>>Do you observe the Festivals and Sabbaths of the Lord and of Israel, or do you observe pagan holidays that have had Jesus' name affixed to them and have taken the place of what is commanded in Scripture?
<<

I generally refrain from answering personal questions but I will tell you that I am not a respector of calender days.

As Paul wrote in Rom 14:5 "One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it . . . "

I choose not to regard the day.



19 posted on 06/28/2003 3:06:33 PM PDT by stranger and pilgrim
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To: ET(end tyranny)
>>If we still need more emphasis, more proof:

2 Corinthians 5
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

What did Paul mean by 'new creature'? <<


What did Paul mean by "old things are passed away"?
20 posted on 06/28/2003 3:18:21 PM PDT by stranger and pilgrim
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