Luther, Calvin, and Other Early Protestants on the Perpetual Virginity of Mary

http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ460.HTM ^ | Dave Armstrong compiles quotes from Martin Luther, John Calvin, et al.,

[AlguyA]

"The Gospel writers had a clear choice, used "only-born" where appropriate, and chose "first-born" in regard to Jesus birth of Mary."

First, thanks for your kind words. I'll be answering your post with several posts so please bear with me. Let's start with monogene.

I believe your observations are correct -in a sense. Monogene means "only-born" while the Holy Spirit chose "first-born" to describe Jesus' relationship to Mary. But I think I differ with you on the import of this fact. Monogene, when applied to Jesus, means something more than just "only-born" from what I've read on the subject. Indeed, from my understanding it connotes, also, a one-of-a-kindness, a specialness. And it is from this connotative sense that we derive, "begottenness" -the idea that the Second person of the Trinity, God the Son, has always coexisted with God the Father and God the Holy Spirit.(And, of course, we especially derive it from the openning sentences John 1.)

Now, look what would happen had the Holy Spirit inspired the Gospel writers to apply monogene to describe Jesus as Mary's only child. The specialness of the relationship between God the Son and God the Father would be muddied. Indeed, on another thread right now, a Calvinist (God bless him) is pointing out an early Mormon belief of God the Son at some point being "born" to God the Father. Now, imagine how much stronger the Mormon heresy in this regard would be if the Holy Spirit had decided to use monogene to also describe the relationship between Mary and Jesus. Monogene is used in the New Testament several times to describe an only child, but it is reserved by John, when he references Jesus, for the special case of the relationship between the three Persons of the Trinity.

Hence, I would argue it makes perfect sense that, when inspiring the Gospel Writers, the Holy Spirit would reserve monogene to describe this special Triune relationship, while using the conventional OT "first-born" usage described by Bechtel to denote the relationship between Mary and Jesus.

It is good that believers ponder such things, even though I'm sure you'll disagree with me. In the last day or two, as I've pondered and prayed on your post, I have found it very fruitful just contemplating such things. Peace be with you and know that I will be addressing the whole "James the Rightous" part of your argument within the next day or so.

[drstevej]

***Buzz off you snake.***

Snakes slither, bees buzz.
Mixed Metaphor, subtract a lettter grade.

[AlguyA]

"That is what she said, isn't it? What did I say, though? You *might* want to try for some accuracy with this."

Actually, it is you who should strive for accuracy. The qoute I offered was directly from you. It can be found in your post #188. Moreover, throughout you last number of posts, you seem to be down playing the Orthodox belief in Mary's perpetual virginity. So, I asked again, is it true that in the Orthodox church Mary Ever-Virgin is rarely if ever discussed and comprises no significant part of your theology?

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Snakes slither

Yep, you summed up youself pretty well.

BigMack

[MarMema]

You know, this is why it is so difficult to dialogue with so many RC on this forum. They recreate the facts to suit themselves and conveniently forget or omit what was actually said. Which is what you have done here.
You are trying hard to believe I am angry or to provoke me into it, but I see you as such a pitiful, sad person that instead I am filled with compassion for you. You are here to promote a church filled with a history of evil and now homosexuality and pedophilia, and it must be very painful to see these things in a church you love.

I have been here arguing with Catholics for years, Patrick. How vain you are to think that your (new) presence is so important that suddenly it would be bothersome for me to hear the same old lines from you and yours.

In the Orthodox church they teach us how to avoid the passions, and I have spent the last 7 years parenting a child who came to us with reactive attachment disorder. I assure that I once knew a 7 year old child who could run circles around you when it comes to provocative behavior.

So pat yourself on the back all you like and be sure to show everyone how much you indulge in your vainglory and self-worship. I don't even think you realize how your posts appear to others here. I am trying to help you - your spiritual immaturity is so evident that I feel sorry for you.

[JesseShurun]

[AlguyA]

"So pat yourself on the back all you like and be sure to show everyone how much you indulge in your vainglory and self-worship."

Could you please direct me to examples on this thread where Patrick has 'patted himself on the back' and 'indulged in self-worship?'

[MarMema]

I am not the only person expressing these kinds of ideas about him on this thread, so I will leave it to you to work it out for yourself. :-)
Try some contemplation, instead of an immediate request for assistance, in understanding this view.

[american colleen]

Just the facts, ma'am, just the facts.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Old Jesse is back!

Having any luck today with attempts to impress, silence your opponent by discussing your professional credentials and experience related to the topic at hand, which clearly make your opinions better and more correct than anyone else's?


Truth is you're so vague about details of your credentials and experience, that they aren't really actually all that impressive.

Run along boy.

BigMack

[JesseShurun]

what you don't like my gif? I thought it was impressive and certainly insightful.

[AlguyA]

You shall be in my prayers.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Yeah, I did too, now everybody knows when you post, you're drunk most of the time, and have a need for more beer.

Have you tried AA?

BigMack

[JesseShurun]

why would I need to? I don't drink.

Are your retorts going to rise much above the PeeWee Herman, "So are you, but what am I?" because, other than your boozing, you're not really that interesting

[MarMema]

the PeeWee Herman, "So are you, but what am I?"

How funny because I actually, deliberately tried to make a joke like this the other day in a post. Max the RC posted and said that England is a Protestant country, and I tried to make a joke in my reply, "I know it is but what is Russia...?"

Anyway I thought it was more like - I know you are but what am I?

[JesseShurun]

LOL

[Patrick Madrid]

It's clear that you badly need to have the last word here, and so I want you to have it.

[JesseShurun]

how does a great free thinker like you stay on these boards? The little hounds of the thought hobgoblins are everywhere

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Do you post in this forum in order to get spammed because you realize it is the only e-mail you'll ever get?

You're not interesting period.

Good day Mr High and Mighty.

BigMack

[JesseShurun]

no, I post in order, to occasionally, meet someone like Marmema. You might hire a student who needs a job this summer, to read her homepage to you. Then you will not only have done a good deed and helped the economy, you might even learn something, and Anheuser-Busch willing, contribute something when you want to interrupt the big people