HaSheeloosh HaKadosh: The Holy Trinity

Shema.com ^ | Congregation Shema Yisrael, A.W. Tozer, Dr.

[White Mountain]

Your #26: [Matthew] "10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come." It's pretty clear that the disciples thought that Jesus would return during their lifetimes, and this looks like a promise to that effect. Can anybody shed any light on this?

I don't think anyone can show that Jesus is definitely referring to His second coming here. This is not the Divine Commission of Matthew 28 -- "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations" -- just before His ascension into heaven. This is sending the apostles on an early mission to the house of Israel only, not to the Gentiles nor to the Samaritans (see verses 5-6). They would return while He was yet in mortality.

I think, therefore, that "the Son of man be come" refers to a future event in His mortal life such as His coming to Jerusalem on the back of a donkey (on the first Palm Sunday).

We will have to ask Jesus when we see Him to know for sure what He meant. ;-) May He come quickly!

[dsc]

"I think, therefore, that "the Son of man be come" refers to a future event in His mortal life such as His coming to Jerusalem on the back of a donkey (on the first Palm Sunday)."

Thank you very much. It seems a little vague, but your reading makes as much sense as the other, in context.

[Uri’el-2012]

bump for study

[Uri’el-2012]

malakhi;Salvation; ET(end tyranny)

S>The Trinity was first hinted at in the Tenach (the Hebrew Scriptures): In the first verse of the Jewish Bible, God is revealed as a unity with a plurality.
m>This article is riddled with so many errors it is hard to even know where to begin. The arguments presented here are not new. On the contrary, they are circulated almost verbatim among various trinitarian sites. They betray an appalling dearth of understanding of Judaism, the Hebrew scriptures, and the Hebrew language. This is the sort of stuff that could only be persuasive to those who are already convinced.
I frankly am weary of pointing out the same errors over and over again. For those who are interested in the truth, I recommend Jews for Judaism, Outreach Judaism, and the numerous other counter-missionary websites which have sprung up to refute this sort of thing.

22 posted on 06/10/2003 10:31 PM MDT by malakhi

Do not let ritual lead you away from righteousness( Hosea 6:6 & Matthew 9:13 )

HSN-4383 Stumbling-block GSN-4625

Le. 19:14 ??Do not curse the deaf or put a stumbling-block in front of
the blind, but fear your God. I am the LORD.

Ps. 56:11 in God I trust; I will not be afraid. What can man do to me?
Ps. 56:12 I am under vows to you, O God; I will present my thankofferings to you.
Ps. 56:13 For you have delivered me [Or my soul] from death and my
feet from stumbling, that I may walk before God in the light
of life. [Or the land of the living]

Ps. 116:8 For you, O LORD, have delivered my soul from death, my
eyes from tears, my feet from stumbling,

Ez. 3:20 ?Again, when a righteous man turns from his righteousness
and does evil, and I put a stumbling-block before him, he will
die. Since you did not warn him, he will die for his sin. The
righteous things he did will not be remembered, and I will
hold you accountable for his blood.
Ez. 3:21 But if you do warn the righteous man not to sin and he does
not sin, he will surely live because he took warning, and you
will have saved yourself.?
Ez. 3:22 The hand of the LORD was upon me there, and he said to
me, ?Get up and go out to the plain, and there I will speak to
you.?

Ez. 14:2 Then the word of the LORD came to me:
Ez. 14:3 ?Son of man, these men have set up idols in their hearts and
put wicked stumbling-blocks before their faces. Should I let
them enquire of me at all?
Ez. 14:4 Therefore speak to them and tell them, ?This is what the
Sovereign LORD says: When any Israelite sets up idols in his
heart and puts a wicked stumbling-block before his face and
then goes to a prophet, I the LORD will answer him myself in
keeping with his great idolatry.
Ez. 14:5 I will do this to recapture the hearts of the people of Israel,
who have all deserted me for their idols.?
Ez. 14:6 ?Therefore say to the house of Israel, ?This is what the
Sovereign LORD says: Repent! Turn from your idols and
renounce all your detestable practices!

Ez. 14:7 ??When any Israelite or any alien living in Israel separates
himself from me and sets up idols in his heart and puts a
wicked stumbling-block before his face and then goes to a
prophet to enquire of me, I the LORD will answer him
myself.
Ez. 14:8 I will set my face against that man and make him an example
and a byword. I will cut him off from my people. Then you
will know that I am the LORD.

Mt. 16:22 Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. ?Never,
Lord!? he said. ?This shall never happen to you!?
Mt. 16:23 Jesus turned and said to Peter, ?Get behind me, Satan! You
are a stumbling-block to me; you do not have in mind the
things of God, but the things of men.?
Mt. 16:24 Then Jesus said to his disciples, ?If anyone would come after
me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.
Mt. 16:25 For whoever wants to save his life [The Greek word means
either life or soul; also in verse 26.] will lose it, but whoever
loses his life for me will find it.

Ro. 9:31 but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it.
Ro. 9:32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it
were by works. They stumbled over the ?stumbling-stone?.
Ro. 9:33 As it is written: ?See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to
stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who
trusts in him will never be put to shame.? [Isaiah 8:14; 28:16]

Ro. 11:9 And David says: ?May their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling-block and a retribution for them.
Ro. 11:10 May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see, and their
backs be bent for ever.? [Psalm 69:22,23]
Ro. 11:11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery?
Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation
has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious.
Ro. 11:12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and
their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fulness bring!

Ro. 14:12 So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.
Ro. 14:13 Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another.
Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling-block
or obstacle in your brother's way.

1Co. 1:22 Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom,
1Co. 1:23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling-block to Jews and
foolishness to Gentiles,
1Co. 1:24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks,
Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
1Co. 1:25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and
the weakness of God is stronger than manes strength.

1Co. 8:8 But food does not bring us near to God; we are no worse if
we do not eat, and no better if we do.
1Co. 8:9 Be careful, however, that the exercise of your freedom does
not become a stumbling-block to the weak.
1Co. 8:10 For if anyone with a weak conscience sees you who have this
knowledge eating in an idol's temple, wont he be
emboldened to eat what has been sacrificed to idols?

2Co. 6:1 As God's fellow-workers we urge you not to receive God's grace in vain.
2Co. 6:2 For he says, ?In the time of my favour I heard you, and in the
day of salvation I helped you.? [Isaiah 49:8] I tell you, now is
the time of God's favour, now is the day of salvation.
2Co. 6:3 We put no stumbling-block in anyone's path, so that our
ministry will not be discredited

Praise His Holy Name

chuck <truth@YeshuaHaMashiach>

[Salvation]

Solemnity of the Most Holy Trinity, June 15, 2003.

[Salvation]

BTTT for Most Holy Trinity Sunday!

[maryz]

Nozrim (pronounced notsREEM with a long 'o') is the plural of Nozri -- lit. Nazarene, still the modern Hebrew word for Christian. "And minim" here seems to be "and the like," but I'm open to correction.

[ninenot]

Interesting.

The "Song" concept is echoed in the Davidic/Jesus analogies, the "Singers."

In fact, an old Austrian hymnal (c. 1625) shows David and the Pope, with a cithara (zither) and cross, on the cartouche. This representation is also found in the North Rose Window at Chartres Cathedral. (!)

Thus the connection between cross and cithara--cult and culture. Further note the oft-repeated connection between David and Melchisidek--the Singer and Priest...

JPII mentioned that 'cult' and 'culture' are absolutely inseparable

[ninenot]

Interesting stuff here.

[ninenot]

Interesting post and thread.

[Uri’el-2012]

bttt

[righttackle44]

Thanks for your post.

I have saved it and printed it out so
I can read it and understand it. (My
ability to read and comprehend long articles
on a computer screen sucks canal water.)

[righttackle44]

"It's pretty clear that the disciples thought that Jesus would return during their lifetimes, and this looks like a promise to that effect."

Ye translates the Greek word umeis [transliterated without accent or breathing marks]. It is plural. Jesus is talking to Jewish people in the context of their culture and ethnology. There will always be Jewish people, including the time He returns.

[Salvation]

Interesting observations between cult and culture. How can they be the same thing, however? I can see the linkage (relationship) between the two -- but not interpreted as one.

Or am I misreading your thoughts here?

[Salvation]

I'm the same way. I can read it on the screen and misterpret it easily. And see my mistake in judgment on a printed copy.

[maryz]

It is, at best, a retranslation from Greek back to Aramaic by someone with a serious New Age ax to grind.

I don't know Aramaic, but I've studied Hebrew, and I recognize enough of the roots and structure. The English may be New Age, but the Aramaic is the Our Father, with "The Kingdom," etc. at the end. (The "Sign of the Cross" - with "One God" - at the beginning of the post is Hebrew, not Aramaic.)

[NYer]

Thank you, Salvation, for reposting this thread! It is not only interesting to revisit but, since its original posting 2 years ago, I have 'grown' more in an understanding of the very questions I originally posted :-) Here is something quite interesting.

St. Ephrem, Deacon and Doctor of the Church, "Harp of the Holy Spirit," uses the image of the sun to help us understand the Trinity as Three-In-One: the bright sphere we see in the sky is the origin of what we know as the sun; it is like the Father, origin of all there is. The light of the sun, coming from the origin, is what we actually see; this is like the Son, Ray and "Light of the World". We feel the warmth of the sun, also coming from the origin; this is like the Holy Spirit, the warmth of God's Love poured out graciously upon us. Source, Light and Warm Love seem separate to us but they are all one. One advantage of this analogy is it similarity to the references to light in the Creed.

In general, the East has tended to favor the economic Trinity approach to the Blessed Trinity. In particular, the Syriac Church (including the Maronite Church) favored the economic Trinity approach as its tradition was adamantly scriptural and initially resisted the terms used in Greek philosophy to talk about theology. The West tended to favor the immanent approach (CCC236).

Today, all Traditions have elements of both approaches to help understand something that will only be fully understood in God's Presence in the Kingdom. For example, at every Maronite Divine Liturgy, at the conclusion of the Penitential Rite, this strong affirmation of the inner life of the Trinity is made, as the Celebrant blesses the Congregation:

May the grace of the most Holy Trinity +,
eternal and co-equal in essence,
be with you, my brothers and sisters,
forever.

We thus realize: The economic Trinity is the immanent Trinity. The ancient Church expressed the truth by the Greek word, perichoresis, which can be understood as a "dancing together" within the Godhead and as reaching out to us. What Jesus revealed to us in the words of the New Testament is nothing less than the inner life of the Divine One.

Awesome!

[Coleus]

http://www.shema.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=67

[Frank Sheed]

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/130101.htm

The scallop shell on the Papal emblem is a reminder of the legend of St. Augustine who was the subject of B-16's thesis. As Augustine walked by the sea pondering the Trinity, he saw a small child trying to empty the sea into a hole dug in the sand using a scallop shell. When he asked what the child was doing, he was told the sea would fill the hole before Augustine could comprehend the Trinity.

All that we really know of the Trinity was given to us by Jesus although portions are found in the Hebrew Scriptures as this shows. It is an amazing mystery of Faith!

Frank

[dsc]

That's got to be some kind of a record: two years between Q and A.

Your answer makes a lot of sense and would explain the apparent contradiction. Has it been an accepted exegisis down the centuries?