To: FactQuest
Then this would be resistable grace. The water is offered, but we refusedNot exactly, we see it (hear the Word) but in our sinful state we are unable to see that it is life. It is irrsistable grace for the elect because we see it for what it is and are drawn to the water.
And this would be the strongest of predestinations, no free will at all. Men, created soley for the purpose of populating hell?
Don't get wrapped around this argument. And by the way, what is spelled out in scripture, free will or predestination? Remember Paul is addressing this very thing in Romans, chapter 8: 14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. 19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' " 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? 22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath--prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory-- 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?
Read verse 20 again? Isn't that the same question you put forth?
As far as God making souls to populate hell, that can be turned around on the free willers as God knew what decision we would make, and yet created those who would go to hell. Does that sound more plausable/palatable?
Try reading this guy, he gives an awesoome defense of election: http://www.spurgeon.org/calvinis.htm
60 posted on
05/13/2003 9:53:49 AM PDT by
Gamecock
(The PCA; We're the "intolerant" ones! (As seen on Taglinus FreeRepublicus, 11th Edition)
To: Gamecock
Romans 8:19 is my question - "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?"
The short answer is, I'll work on this passage and come back.
The long answer is, I'll do some of that work in this post. :D
As far as God making souls to populate hell, that can be turned around on the free willers as God knew what decision we would make, and yet created those who would go to hell. Does that sound more plausable/palatable?
Well, yes, that does sound much more palatable. Foreknowledge, while similar, still allows for free will. Some people will disagree with me, not seeing anyway in which foreknowledge doesn't curtail free will, but I see foreknowledge by God as not placing any limitation on my free will. He is outside of time, I am not.
Try reading this guy, he gives an awesoome defense of election: http://www.spurgeon.org/calvinis.htm
I did. He's very eloquent. I particularly liked the part where he looks deeper into his salvation experience, and sees that it was God's grace, and the deeper he looks, he keeps finding God's grace. It reminded me of the Native American story of the world resting on the back of a giant turtle. When asked "What does that turtle stand on?" the elder said "Another turtle." When asked what that turtle stood on, the elder paused for a while, then answered "It's turtles, all the way down."
Not that that applies really. I think.
Anyway, one thought about Pharaoh - God hardens whom He will harden. This does not preclude that Pharaoh had a chance at some point in his life. My thesis only requires a minimum of one quickening per person per lifetime. If rejected, and particularly if rejected repeatedly, he may never get another chance - he will be "hardened." As I recall, the first few (several?) times that Pharaoh refused Moses, he hardened himself. It was only later that God hardened Pharaoh's heart.
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