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To: Gamecock
Romans 8:19 is my question - "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?"

The short answer is, I'll work on this passage and come back.

The long answer is, I'll do some of that work in this post. :D

As far as God making souls to populate hell, that can be turned around on the free willers as God knew what decision we would make, and yet created those who would go to hell. Does that sound more plausable/palatable?

Well, yes, that does sound much more palatable. Foreknowledge, while similar, still allows for free will. Some people will disagree with me, not seeing anyway in which foreknowledge doesn't curtail free will, but I see foreknowledge by God as not placing any limitation on my free will. He is outside of time, I am not.

Try reading this guy, he gives an awesoome defense of election: http://www.spurgeon.org/calvinis.htm

I did. He's very eloquent. I particularly liked the part where he looks deeper into his salvation experience, and sees that it was God's grace, and the deeper he looks, he keeps finding God's grace. It reminded me of the Native American story of the world resting on the back of a giant turtle. When asked "What does that turtle stand on?" the elder said "Another turtle." When asked what that turtle stood on, the elder paused for a while, then answered "It's turtles, all the way down."

Not that that applies really. I think.

Anyway, one thought about Pharaoh - God hardens whom He will harden. This does not preclude that Pharaoh had a chance at some point in his life. My thesis only requires a minimum of one quickening per person per lifetime. If rejected, and particularly if rejected repeatedly, he may never get another chance - he will be "hardened." As I recall, the first few (several?) times that Pharaoh refused Moses, he hardened himself. It was only later that God hardened Pharaoh's heart.
63 posted on 05/14/2003 8:26:47 AM PDT by FactQuest
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To: FactQuest
but I see foreknowledge by God as not placing any limitation on my free will. He is outside of time, I am not.

But when you say this, you are tossing out the entire Romans passage I provided. Think about it! Paul is defending God's choice, not ours. He is answereing those that cannot accept the concept of predestination. Why does he do this? Because we, in our sinful state cannot accept Christ. Only by effectual calling can we be quickened and the scales fall off of our sinful eyes. And who does the effectual calling and why? God does, because it is to his Glory.

Try this: consider the Bible as a whole instead of just the verses that have been provided so far. Look at how God's will is never thwarted. When someone tries to do his will, he gets slammed hard (Jonah, Pharoah, Saul to name a few). Look at God choosing individuals to save, and others to doom. Look at God choosing a nation. Look at God doing his wiill.

Think about the Lord's prayer. We are taught to pray "Thy will be done." Not an sinners will.

Think about when you pray for someone to come to Christ. When we pray, we always pray like Calvinists! "Lord, move in my friends heart so they will come to you." It's never, "Well God, I would like them to be saved, but I know that it's their free will, so I guess our hands are tied."

Talk to a brand new Christian. The vast majority have no problem with predestination. They are still new enough in their walks that they realize they were called and could not resist. It is only when they start to hear free will being wrongly preached that they get off track.

64 posted on 05/14/2003 9:04:05 AM PDT by Gamecock (The PCA; We're the "intolerant" ones! (As seen on Taglinus FreeRepublicus, 11th Edition)
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