The Theology of John Calvin

http://www.markers.com/ink/bbwcalvin2.htm ^ | Benjamin B. Warfield (1851-1921)

[JesseShurun]

Well not only that, but being God, He knows how the Bushman would have reacted if he had heard of Jesus and His offer of salvation, so the Bushman is not "made" for destruction. Therefore, he is truly predestined

[Dr. Eckleburg]

How do you know when something is incomprehensible?

There are a few questions with no concrete answers.

"Eternity" is one. "Infinity" is another. "Setting my VCR" is a given.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Bump to Law's great Post #619.

[Gamecock]

Thanks for the ping.
L, that was brilliant....

[Gamecock]

Friend, I think we are arguing circles around the same point. Of course it was a sin. Our own measly perception of what is or is not sin does not provide us an excuse.

My point in the original post was that it wasn't until God grabbed Saul by the collar and shook some sense into him, did he realize what he was doing. God "choose" Saul to become a great preacher. Paul did not have a free will in the matter. Please reread the entire post again from that perpective.

<><

[rwfromkansas]

I never realized just how strongly the entire chapter proves Reformed theology.

Looking back after your post, I see this:


John 6:36-44
36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe.
37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.
38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.
39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.
40 For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."
41 At this the Jews began to grumble about him because he said, "I am the bread that came down from heaven."
42 They said, "Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, 'I came down from heaven'?"
43 "Stop grumbling among yourselves," Jesus answered.
44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
(NIV)

Wow. Immediately after saying they have seen but do not believe, Jesus explains that people only believe if drawn. Immediately after saying they did not believe, he gives an explanation for why they don't! Then, at the end, Jesus tells them to stop grumbling about his "no proof" basically, and just reiterates that people can only come if the Father draws!

Wow.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Thanks for the recap. It's a wonderful testament to "my Father's will."

[Gamecock]

Cool, isn't it!

[so_real]

I completely agree that the Twelve Apostles were chosen specifically by God/Jesus, in order that the prophecies of the Old Covenant would be fulfilled and that the New Covenant would be taught to the world. But I completely disagree that an entire theology can be based on this one single selection process.

John chapter 6 specifically describes the selection process of the Twelve Apostles starting with the building up of the disciples and the multitude through teaching and miracles, and ending with only the Twelve remaining, whom God had specifically chosen ahead of time. I encourage everyone here to take 10 minutes and re-read the entire chapter.

Picking up from the point where the multitude had already been built up:

John 6:24-25 "When the people therefore saw that Jesus was not there, neither his disciples, they also took shipping, and came to Capernaum, seeking for Jesus. And when they had found him on the other side of the sea, they said unto him, Rabbi, when camest thou hither?"

Those that followed Jesus to Capernaum claimed the desire to be His apostles. They followed after Him and called Him "Rabbi", teacher or scholar.

John 6:26-27 "Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled. Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed."

Jesus tells them they only followed Him because He had filled their bellies (shortly before He had fed the multitude with bread and fish out of thin air). They should follow Him instead, He says, because He is the Christ sent from God.

John 6:28 "Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?"

But they insist they know what they are asking. They were sure they wanted to be Jesus' apostles, and they asked how they might achieve that goal.

John 6:29 "Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."

Jesus answers them honestly, all they have to do is believe in Him, that He is the Christ sent from God. Simple.

John 6:30-31 "They said therefore unto him, What sign showest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work? Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat."

But they could not simply believe. If it was an easy thing for an Old Covenant Jew to simply believe that Jesus was the Christ, then all Old Covenant Jews would have so believed. Then the prophesy of Jesus' crucifixion could not have come to pass, for no believer would demand the death of the Christ. Because they could not believe, they asked Jesus to "prove it". Beyond any miracles a man of great faith could work through God (like Moses receiving manna from Heaven for the children of Israel in Exodus), what sign could Jesus show them to remove all their doubt?

John 6:32-33 "Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world."

Jesus assures them that He is the one sent of God, but He does so in riddle fashion. The weeding out process has begun. Because they first admitted they could not simply believe, Jesus was now justified in pushing them away. In their doubt, they had proven not to be among the elect Twelve. Remember His ultimate goal here was the selection of His core group and He already knew who the chosen Twelve were.

John 6:34 "Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread."

They totally didn't get the riddle, but receiving life sounded good :-)

John 6:35 "And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst."

Jesus explains the riddle, but He is also preparing them for additional frustration in the near future. Soon He will tell them they must eat His flesh and drink His blood to live. Imagine telling that to an Old Testament Jew. The Eucharist was not yet a sacrament.

John 6:36-37 "But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."

All these people sincerely wanted to be His apostles, but that was not meant to be. Only the Twelve had been pre-selected (but not yet fully made known) for this task. So He kindly explains that the Father has already provided a select few (the Twelve) to come to Him. This select group would not doubt Him, would not require further convincing, and He would not turn them away. But everyone else consequently must be turned away.

John 6:38 "For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me."

The Father provided Him a specific group of disciples, and He would accept only them, because His purpose was to do the will of the Father. We know that were it not the will of the Father, He would rather have had the cup of crucifixion pass from Him. By teaching the entire multitude into belief, something He was entirely capable of, that cup would have passed from Him - for what believer would demand His execution. But that was not the will of the Father, so only those few pre-chosen by God would be accepted as His apostles. The rest would be turned angrily, as we will see, away.

John 6:39 "And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day."

This is for the chosen disciples. It was God's will that all of them be saved. But that, sadly, was not the case due to the weakness of Judas Iscariot. Still, God made it very clear that even in the case of Judas it was not His will that he be lost. Man often falls short of the will of God.

John 6:40 "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."

And this was for all those that remained un-chosen, all those that Jesus would instead turn away. They had seen the Son with their own eyes and many, after the complete fulfillment of the Old Covenant prophesies, would doubt no longer but believe in the Son. Even though they were not chosen to establish Jesus' church, it was God's will that they not be exempted from salvation. Jesus wanted them to be aware of this so they knew they were welcome back to Him even after His death.

John 6:41-42 "The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven. And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?"

The bulk of the Jews were now a little upset. Not only did Jesus tell them that those who doubted would not be chosen, but He also refused to "prove" that He was the Christ (to allay their doubts as they had asked Him to). The weeding out is beginning to work. Remember that Jesus had to weed them out; He had to turn them away angry that they would rise up against Him and have Him crucified in order that the will of the Father be done, prophesy fulfilled.

John 6:43-44 "Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

Jesus was giving them the bottom line of it. He would only accept those apostles drawn out by the Father, period. All their disenting could not change this; so they should just pipe down about it.

John 6:45 "It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me."

Essentially those who were pre-chosen, who had no doubts, were then called to make themselves known and be prepared to be taught by God (Jesus) Himself.

John 6:46 "Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. I am that bread of life. Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."

Sometimes when asking for volunteers to step forward, it is easier to get the rest of the group to step back. Jesus repeated what He said before. He meant it and it is accurate. But He also threw in the foreshadowing of the Eucharist in order to work them up a little more.

John 6:52 "The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us [his] flesh to eat?"

He succeeded :-) They'll be stepping back soon.

John 6:53-59 "Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever. These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum."

Again, He's driving the concept of the Eucharist into them, expounding upon it. Why? Because after the apostles are commanded to perform the Eucharist in remembrance of Him, after He is crucified, after all the prophesies of the Old Covenant are fulfilled, many in this crowd will remember the shocking words Jesus spoke on that day. They will finally come to understanding. They will be among the first to accept Jesus' gift of salvation, all because it was the will of the Father that all those that saw Jesus and believed Him would live.

John 6:60-61 "Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard [this], said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it? When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?"

Jesus had some of those who had followed His teaching for some time back-pedaling. The weeding out process included them. Only those chosen in advance by God would remain in the end.

John 6:62-65 "[What] and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life. But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father."

Jesus is challenging the faith of the disciples following Him (a larger group than just the twelve that ultimately remained). The same deal that applied to the multitude applied to them as well. If they doubted, if they could not believe that He was the Christ, they would not be numbered among his apostles either. They would not be allowed.

John 6:66 "From that [time] many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him."

Mission accomplished. Those disciples with doubts, who were not chosen, left Him. Only twelve remained.

John 6:67-69 "Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God."

Eureka! These twelve passed the test. They had no doubts. They believed without need of further convincing that Jesus was the Christ. Truly, these were the ones drawn by the Father, chosen to be Jesus' apostles, destined to grow His church.

John 6:70-71 "Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? He spake of Judas Iscariot [the son] of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve."

Jesus confirmed it; these were indeed the ones chosen. Not only did He confirm this; but He also foreshadowed the fall of one of them, Judas. He knew who they would be before the multitude and the disciples were turned away, and He knew who would betray Him before the act took place.



And that is the end of Chapter 6! It is an incredibly detailed and accurate history of the selection of the Twelve Apostles. And the insight into the plan for salvation is a joy to read; it's amazing how all the pieces fall into place as God's will unfolds. But, Chapter 6 is still only a history.

I don't want to rain on anyone's parade, but using the selection process of the Twelve Apostles to validate an entire theology of the "elect" is bewildering. And that is before considering how many Bible passages have to properly interpreted, left as untenable mystery, or chalked up to "figurative" speech in order to support the assertion. Noodle it for a bit, and tell me what you think.

[Gamecock]

Bump for a later read.

[so_real]

Did I type all that? Sorry everyone :-(

[jude24]

Feel free to type as much as you like; serious theological discussion on FR has been lacking for several months.

[so_real]

Bump to post #629

I don't know how I missed you from the original distribution list!

[RnMomof7]

Marlow writes
Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

The choice is there. God has surrendered to man the freewill to respond, to choose betwen life and death, blessing or cursing and he has given man the adivce to Choose life.


DCL responds

On the contrary, the context of the Deuteronomy Passage proves that ought does not imply can. The passage continues:

15) And the LORD appeared in the tabernacle in a pillar of a cloud: and the pillar of the cloud stood over the door of the tabernacle.
16) And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.
17) Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us?
18) And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they shall have wrought, in that they are turned unto other gods.
19) Now therefore write ye this song for you, and teach it the children of Israel: put it in their mouths, that this song may be a witness for me against the children of Israel.
20) For when I shall have brought them into the land which I sware unto their fathers, that floweth with milk and honey; and they shall have eaten and filled themselves, and waxen fat; then will they turn unto other gods, and serve them, and provoke me, and break my covenant.
21) And it shall come to pass, when many evils and troubles are befallen them, that this song shall testify against them as a witness; for it shall not be forgotten out of the mouths of their seed: for I know their imagination which they go about, even now, before I have brought them into the land which I sware.

Deuteronomy 31:15-21 KJV, emphasis by me



God did indeed give them a law which He knew that they would not and could not keep.



There you go posting scripture in context again..What will we do with these Calvinists??

[RnMomof7]

John chapter 6 specifically describes the selection process of the Twelve Apostles starting with the building up of the disciples and the multitude through teaching and miracles, and ending with only the Twelve remaining, whom God had specifically chosen ahead of time. I encourage everyone here to take 10 minutes and re-read the entire chapter.

I disagree. Disciples do not =apostles.

Jesus had many many disciples but only 12 apostles. This chapter speaks to the disciples.

This is a great predestination chapter

  Jhn 6:64   But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.   

  Jhn 6:65   And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father

.Jhn 6:69   And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.      Jhn 6:70   Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

You are confusing Apostles and disciples. Jesus had 12 Apostles the story of their individual call is found in scripture

He had 72 disciples Luk 10:1   After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come.

[rwfromkansas]

Very detailed analysis.

BUT, the verse specifically says the problem with wanting to become a disciple is that they did not want to BELIEVE HE WAS THE SON OF GOD. They did not believe because they have to be drawn and they were not. Therefore, they are also not disciples.

This has eternal relevance and meaning for us regardless of context.

[fortheDeclaration]

In context or out of context, the point remains that future tense is used in all these verses : "I will blot", "I will not blot", "they be blotted". That which has not been written, can not be blotted out. If only the names of the elect were written, nothing would or could ever be blotted out as the Book would pre-exist in a perfectly accurate condition. It is clear that God has the ability to alter the content of the Book of Life by His will. If only the elect are written in the Book to begin with, these passages become misleading, if not deceptive -- two qualities I shudder to attribute to God.

You are correct.

Lose of salvation for an Old Testament saint goes against Unconditional election.

We who hold to eternal security, believe that the issue is not unconditional election, but election in Christ that makes one secure.

The Old Testament saint could have his name blotted out of the book of life, since he was not in union with Christ.

The Church Age believer is however, the body of Christ and His bride, and that is the basis of his eternal security.

[so_real]

"Disciple" came from the Greek "math-ay-tes" meaning learner, or student. All those who followed Jesus specifically to learn from Him was a disciple.

Apostle came from the Greek "ap-os-tol-os" meaning messenger, or ambassador. These served as the foundation of the Christian Church.

All apostles were disciples, but not all disciples became apostles. (ref. John 6:66)

The twelve disciples did not become the twelve apostles until after the crucifixion when Jesus was raised up, had breathed the Holy Spirit onto the Twelve, taught them, and sent them out into the world as messengers in His wake. Of course, this was also after Judas was replaced by Matthias.

So, you are right! I was premature in describing them as apostles instead of disciples. That would be in the future and one of them would not make the final cut. I will be sure to correct this in my future commentary. Thank you!

Still, at the beginning of John Chapter 6 Jesus had a large following and at the end of John Chapter 6 Jesus had only the pre-selected twelve *disciples* (caught myself that time:-).

The brunt of Chapter 6 is the historical "how and why" He weeded out His disciples. John is completely historical in his writing here. I agree that it *is* a great predestination chapter. But it is also very clear this predestination applied here only to the pre-selected twelve disciples. Jesus confirmed this in John 6:70 saying specifically "Have not I chosen you twelve".

Again, I totally agree that the selection of the twelve disciples was predestined. Jesus knew who they would be long before He began weeding (or cast'ing out) those who would not be numbered among the twelve. But I totally disagree that this historical account of the "elect" disciples' selection is solid footing for the foundation of an entire predestination theology.

John wrote this as a history, and I accept it as a history (and what an incredible history it is!).

[fortheDeclaration]

Law: I see in Acts 10-11 an unsaved man seeking God... "...No one seeks for God." [Romans 3:11] FTD: Cornilus did in Acts.10! Careful there, man. Building a doctrine out of Acts is dangerous, given that Acts portrays the transition from the Old Testament dispensation to the New.

Well, now, are going to do a dispensational defense of Calvinism?

Believe me, I have thought about that, but it doesn't say that Cornilus became a Christian,(a transition from an Old Testament saint to New) but that he was saved.

Besides, this would indicate he was regenerate, after the pattern of the Old Testament saints: "[Cornelius was] a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, and gave many alms to the Jewish people and prayed to God continually." -- Acts 10:2 [NASB]

An Old Testament saint was already saved, Corinilus got saved by going to Peter and hearing and believing the Gospel.

What the passage states is that one could be 'devout' and 'pray' and be unsaved!

Maybe Romans 3:11 is hybolic to make a point that both Jews and Gentiles are both equally in sin. Yes, to some extent: it shows that all men are completely evil. This is what Total Depravity means -- that man is as bad off as he can be. After all, not all men are as wicked as the description of those who follow in vs 13-18. Really now? I know I was. This described me completely before salvation, and alas, it still describes my old nature. It describes every single person on this board.

It does?

Does it describe the 'rich young ruler' who Jesus loved?

Even Calvinists admit that there are unbelievers who are moral men.

The point that Paul is making is in vs. 19 that all the world is guilty before God, not that there is no one who being an unbeliever, does not fear God.

In Gen. 20 the Pharoah defended himself by stating that he had done this from the 'integrity of my heart and innocency of my hands have I done this' and God agreed with him.

Moreover, there was an unbeliever who feared God and did what God told Him to do!

I know that verse is one of the Calvinist key proof texts, but the fact is men do seek God even if blindly, needing God's light (Acts.17:27,30) Actually Acts 17:27 says, "if perhaps they might grope for him," as if it anticipates that men do not.

No, it is saying that men may do so and that man is commanded to do so (Acts.17:30)

In other words, God is there working in our lives, and not hiding himself, so that if we sought after him, we'd find him. But, because we are utterly and completely sinful, we do not, so we are without excuse. We cannot claim, "well, if he showed Himself to be God, I would believe Him." Well, He has, and many of us still do not believe Him.

LOL!

You Calvinists are a hoot!

So God puts man into Total Depravity,(Willing that Adam would fall and the consquences of the Fall) so that man cannot respond to the God's calling, but it is man who is responsible for not responding!

No one seeks God, no not one.

Since God seeks man via nature and conscience, man does seek God by responding to that 'call'.

Man must make a decision to respond or reject it.

Man can respond to the call and go the route of Religion (works) as did the Jews or philosophy, as did the Greeks, and then reject the final Gospel call to receive Christ as Saviour.

[so_real]

BUT, the verse specifically says the problem with wanting to become a disciple is that they did not want to BELIEVE HE WAS THE SON OF GOD.

They had doubts that Jesus was the Son of God, but Jesus was entirely capable of teaching and convincing them otherwise -- He was God after all. But that would have been contrary to the will of the Father. The twelve whom the Father had drawn and given Him did not require convincing; so Jesus refused to "prove" himself to the rest gathered as they had requested. Instead He cast them away, but first He paved the way (in part by shocking them so thoroughly with the talk of the Eucharist) for them to later come to understanding and accept Him (remember the will of the Father in John 6:40).

They did not believe because they have to be drawn and they were not.

In this I agree with you. The twelve did have to be drawn by the Father and given to Jesus. Absolutely. Put yourself in the shoes of an Old Covenant Jew. You've been expecting the Christ to come in power to rule and instead this Jesus character comes humbled to serve. The ability to work miracles would not convince you, as Abraham (purely man) had provided manna from God in Heaven. You (and I for that matter) would have been among those asking Jesus for "proof" -- unless we had first been drawn and given to Jesus by the Father.

This has eternal relevance and meaning for us regardless of context.

Again, I agree completely.