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Pope's ruling bars Blair from taking Communion with family
The London Times ^ | April 17, 2003 | Richard Owen in Rome and Tom Baldwin

Posted on 04/17/2003 1:05:24 PM PDT by Willie Green

For education and discussion only. Not for commercial use.

ANY hope that Tony Blair had of enjoying a happy, Catholic Easter with his family will be crushed today by the Pope.

John Paul II is issuing a new encyclical that The Times has learnt will explicitly forbid Protestants like the Prime Minister taking Communion with Catholics such as Cherie Blair and their children.

The 83-year-old Pope has chosen Holy Week to stamp on what he sees as dangerously “liberal” interpretations of the Roman Catholic doctrine that only those “in full communion with Rome” can take part in the Eucharist.

Mr Blair, who remains a committed, if ecumenical, member of the Church of England, regularly attends Catholic Mass with his family. He also used to take Communion with them at the St Joan of Arc church in Islington.

But in 1996, he received a letter from Cardinal Basil Hume asking him to desist. In his reply, Mr Blair did not conceal his dismay at such theological conservatism. Saying that he merely wished to worship with his family but had not realised his behaviour was causing offence, he promised he would not do so again. The letter added: “I wonder what Jesus would have made of it?”

Since then Mr Blair, who admits he is strongly drawn to Catholicism, has more than once explored the limits of this doctrine. Britain has never had a Catholic prime minister and in 1998 he had to deny reports he had converted after being spotted going to Westminster Cathedral for Mass unaccompanied by his family. Suggestions that he had received the Eucharist on this occasion were never confirmed.

There have also been rumours that when Mr Blair is on holiday abroad he has taken Communion with his family.

The Pope´s fourteenth encyclical slams the door on the many Catholics and Protestants who currently take Communion together and represents a setback for Dr Rowan Williams, the Archbishop of Canterbury, who is a firm advocate of ecumenism. When Mr Blair visited the Pope at the Vatican last month, he may have got a hint of what was to come. While his family went to take Communion with the Pope, the Prime Minister only received a blessing. The Pope also made it clear that he disagreed with Mr Blair about war in Iraq.


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To: latina4dubya
. but i've chosen to take communion anyway... i think the rule is ridiculous...

If you chose to leave the Catholic Church you are not in communion with Her. When you receive communion you affirm that you are in union. That makes you a liar, a hypocrite and what you do is sacrilegious.

61 posted on 04/17/2003 1:45:13 PM PDT by Renatus
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To: jwh_Denver
Where's Henry the VIII when you need him? (just a joke).
62 posted on 04/17/2003 1:47:34 PM PDT by cwb
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To: lugsoul
Nope - it's a question of whether one accepts the faith as decreed by Rome , not whether one accepts the faith as set forth in the Bible.

Yes, it is exactly a question of whether God left us a Church or a Book. You believe the latter. That is your perogative.

All we ask is that those who do not believe all that we beleive to respect that we are not in union, and not to pretend to be so.

I am a Protestant. My wife is Catholic. We had planned to take our daughter to her first Easter mass this weekend. If I can't participate, I am not going to sanction such a divisive and exclusionary practice by going to get my "blessing."

You do what your conscience tells you. The blessing is there for those who would find it useful. You do not, so you can certainly abstain.

The requirement of belief in transsubstantiation is man-made law, and the Church does itself a disservice by turning away believers based upon it.

I posted the verses from 1 Cor above. They clearly show that one is to discern the Body and Blood of the Lord or to refrain from Communion.

I don't know how much more clear it can be. If you can not see the Body there, then don't partake. It could damn you.

The Church does no disservice in holding on to what we believe and not watering it down so that any old view of what the faith means is acceptable. Might as well become the Unitarians then.

SD

63 posted on 04/17/2003 1:49:27 PM PDT by SoothingDave
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To: SoothingDave

Date: 2003-04-17

"Ecclesia de Eucharistia" Is John Paul II's Most Personal Encyclical

Includes Autobiographical Notes and Poetic Quotations

VATICAN CITY, APRIL 17, 2003 (Zenit.org).- The encyclical "Ecclesia de Eucharistia," published by John Paul II this Holy Thursday, is the most personal of the 14 he has written.

The encyclical has some vivid poetic passages, interlaced with phrases in which the Pope expresses his intense love for the Eucharist. The style is testimonial, common to papal documents of this type.

Described in the presentation by the Vatican Press Office as "a relatively short document (78 pages in the version published by the Vatican), but profound in its theological, disciplinary and pastoral aspects," the encyclical is a text of six chapters, plus an Introduction and Conclusion, and 104 footnotes, the majority taken from the Second Vatican Council.

More than in any other of his documents, the Pope writes this encyclical in a very personal manner.

He does so by giving autobiographical notes, poetic quotations, metaphors and singularly personal topics, as well as unexpected contributions, such as the decision to dedicate the last chapter to Mary, whom he defines as a "Eucharistic" woman.

The Pope "confesses" to the reader the importance of the Eucharist in his ministry.

"From the time I began my ministry as the Successor of Peter, I have always marked Holy Thursday, the day of the Eucharist and of the priesthood, by sending a Letter to all the priests of the world. This year, the twenty-fifth of my Pontificate, I wish to involve the whole Church more fully in this Eucharistic reflection," he writes.

The Holy Father's memories in connection with the Eucharist are expressed in point No. 7, in which he says: "When I think of the Eucharist, and look at my life as a priest, as a Bishop, and as the Successor of Peter, I naturally recall the many times and places in which I was able to celebrate it."

"I remember the parish church of Niegowic, where I had my first pastoral assignment, the collegiate church of Saint Florian in Krakow, Wawel Cathedral, Saint Peter's Basilica and so many basilicas and churches in Rome and throughout the world."

He continues: "I have been able to celebrate Holy Mass in chapels built along mountain paths, on lakeshores and seacoasts; I have celebrated it on altars built in stadiums and in city squares. ... This varied scenario of celebrations of the Eucharist has given me a powerful experience of its universal and, so to speak, cosmic character.

"Yes, cosmic! Because even when it is celebrated on the humble altar of a country church, the Eucharist is always in some way celebrated on the altar of the world. It unites heaven and earth. It embraces and permeates all creation."

Gratitude is another sentiment reflected in the encyclical. The Pope acknowledges that he takes up again the theme of his first reflections on the eucharistic mystery, during the early years of his apostolic ministry in the Chair of Peter.

He expresses "with even greater emotion and gratitude in my heart, echoing as it were the words of the Psalmist: 'What shall I render to the Lord for all his bounty to me? I will lift up the cup of salvation and call on the name of the Lord.'"

John Paul II, who began his ministry with the encyclical "Redemptor Hominis," focused on Jesus Christ, "center of the cosmos and of history," now takes up, in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, the issues that have concerned him most in this quarter of a century, which he considers decisive for the future of the Church.


64 posted on 04/17/2003 1:50:06 PM PDT by Willie Green (Go Pat Go!!!)
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To: Willie Green
it surprises me that he was taking communion until 1996...in the US you can not take communion unless you are a member of a catholic church...
65 posted on 04/17/2003 1:50:24 PM PDT by Bill Davis FR
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To: SoothingDave
At least there are a few of you hard-core Romanists left. I don't have much respect for the ones that sacrifice doctrine for the sake of ecumenism.
66 posted on 04/17/2003 1:51:10 PM PDT by The Grammarian
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To: ellery
Just out of curiosity, what would the Anglican church have to do to rejoin the Roman Catholic church?

Return to Roman jurisdiction. Re-affirm the Catholic faith and denounce the articles that differentiated the Anglicans from the Catholics.

And since they've generally cocked-up the ordination process, all of the priests woudl need to be at least conditionally ordained. This would exclude women, of course.

SD

67 posted on 04/17/2003 1:51:20 PM PDT by SoothingDave
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To: Renatus
If you chose to leave the Catholic Church you are not in communion with Her.

Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. 5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

The communion is not supposed to be with Her but with God.
68 posted on 04/17/2003 1:52:32 PM PDT by TSgt (“If I do my full duty, the rest will take care of itself.” - General George S. Patton)
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To: ellery
Just out of curiosity, what would the Anglican church have to do to rejoin the Roman Catholic church?

Acknowledge the primacy of the Bishop of Rome, plus a few other minor doctrinal matters.

69 posted on 04/17/2003 1:54:28 PM PDT by Argus (credo in unam, sanctam, catholicam et apostolicam Ecclesiam)
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To: Willie Green
This ruling has nothing at all to do with Tony Blair. To put his name in the headline makes about as much sense as saying that the law of gravity prevents Tony Blair from being able to leap tall buildings with a single bound. It's a true statement, but it has nothing more to do with Tony Blair than it does to you. (I, however, can leap tall buidlings with a single bound, but that's a story for another time).

I am confident that Mr. Blair will abide by the Pope's ruling with respect. It's not exactly new, anyway. The Pope is just re-stating long standing policy.

70 posted on 04/17/2003 1:55:18 PM PDT by gridlock (CNN (spitting sound), you're dead to me!)
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To: AxelPaulsenJr
You understand that Protestant denominations have this allowance for strictly pragmatic reasons, right?
71 posted on 04/17/2003 1:55:29 PM PDT by JohnGalt (Class of '98)
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To: Willie Green
Very rough days for the Catholics. Their leadership has run amuck. My prayers are with them.
72 posted on 04/17/2003 1:56:10 PM PDT by showme_the_Glory (No more rhyming, and I mean it! ..Anybody got a peanut.....)
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To: SoothingDave
A Church and a Book. The Problem with Catholics is that they insist that the Holy Roman Church is the entirety of the Church.

"Discern the body of Christ" - And you are certain that this means see the actual living body of Christ, as opposed to, say, accept this sacrament as if it is the actual living body of Christ? And you are also certain that the latter interpretation is so far beyond the pale as to justify denying a Christian the sacrament? Are you so certain for any reason except that Rome says so?

What is the Catholic stance on cannabalism? In which verse does the exception for the Eucharist arise?

When you discern, does it still look like unleavened bread? Does it taste like it? Smell? Is there a physical discernment, or do you just "know"?

73 posted on 04/17/2003 1:57:55 PM PDT by lugsoul
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To: MikeWUSAF
Good Lord, man! If you believe the Catholic Church is the condemmed Church, the whore of Babylon, why on earth would you want to pretend you were in communion with her?

Be consistent!

SD

74 posted on 04/17/2003 1:58:28 PM PDT by SoothingDave
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To: SoothingDave
Got it, thanks! I personally think that if you're in someone else's home, you follow their rules, whether or not you agree with them. When in Rome...
75 posted on 04/17/2003 2:00:47 PM PDT by ellery
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To: steplock
As part of a denomination which welcomes anyone who professes belief in Christ to join us in communion (I'd say about ten percent of the members where I attend are former Roman Catholics) I can't say I understand the reasoning for this, but if that's the rule it's none of my business. Those that don't agree, including Mr. Blair, have lots of alternatives.

For instance, he could take the lunge and become Catholic. I'm not aware of many doctrinal differeneces between the Church of England and Rome so, except for how it fits with British history, it shouldn't really be too great a leap.

76 posted on 04/17/2003 2:00:59 PM PDT by katana
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To: Willie Green
Since the Pope only has authority over Roman Catholics, and Blair is not one, I don't see how this "ruling" is relevant... The pontiff can forbit a priest from serving him communion, but what penalty can he confer on someone not a part of his organization?

It's up to Blair if he wants to follow Roman teaching or not.
77 posted on 04/17/2003 2:01:02 PM PDT by AnalogReigns
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To: lugsoul
I have explained to you our rationale, and have backed it with Scripture, as we interpret it.

You are free to disagree, but to not understand our objections is to not act reasonably. We only want those who share our faith to commune with us. Why is that so hard to udnerstand?

We believe that those who do not agree with us risk their souls in communing under false pretenses. So we ask them not to.

Why is that so hard to udnerstand?

Disagree with our beliefs if you will, but understand whay we do what we do.

SD

78 posted on 04/17/2003 2:01:11 PM PDT by SoothingDave
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To: AnalogReigns
Since the Pope only has authority over Roman Catholics, and Blair is not one, I don't see how this "ruling" is relevant...

Thats why you don't work for the London Times....

SD

79 posted on 04/17/2003 2:01:50 PM PDT by SoothingDave
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To: katana
take the plunge
80 posted on 04/17/2003 2:02:04 PM PDT by katana
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