Do babies go to Heaven?

and it is not from being "nice"

Ain't that the truth!

there is no "de fide" definition of reprobation, however there is a general teaching of the Catholic Church that there is a conditioned positive Reprobation, that is, it occurs with consideration of foreseen future demerits (post et propter praevisa demerita).

As is the teaching of Calvinism. Reprobation conditioned on Foreseen Future DeMerits.

When I say I don't believe in reprobation, I mean I don't believe in unconditional positive reprobation. Whereas the Westminster Confession of Faith emphatically repudiates a conditional reprobation.

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Not only does the WCF not "emphatically repudiate a conditional reprobation", the WCF emphatically teaches a Conditional Reprobation. Ch. III, sec. 7; ch. VI sec. 6; ch. XXXIII sec. 1&2. Do you even bother to read Protestant Creeds, or just repeat something that perhaps Karl Keating may have babbled in a moment of delirium?

The only way through that tension is to seek a doctrine that balances the universal nature of the free offer, free will and predestination. I believe this is where the Catholic Church, and many other churches are today.

So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

ANY Religious Theory which proposes that an unregenerate Man will choose the God-pleasing option of True Repentance unto Jesus, is Biblically illegal in its violation of the Soteriological Law of Romans 8:8 -- you cannot propose that an Unregenerate Man will make a God-pleasing Choice.

Thus, only Calvinism (which teaches that Regeneration precedes Repentance) is Biblically legitimate.

That said, I can only wish I were as smart as you and Augustine and OP. :-) So I *think* that (one of?) our doctrinal quarrels are really about conditional versus unconditional reprobation.

Conditional

Unconditional

If you imagine that such a belief is somehow inconsistent, you're being shallow in your thinking. You can't just assume Necessity of Equivalence between the modes of Election and Reprobation without working through the Logic.

Here's the scoop:

Reprobation

Reprobation is conditioned upon a Man choosing to Reject God.
Given the choice, all UnRegenerate Men choose to Reject God.
Thus, UnRegenerate Men fulfill the Condition.
Election
Only those who Truly Repent will enter Heaven.
Unregenerate Men will never naturally choose to Repent, thus they do not "elect themselves".
Therefore, that some might be Saved, God unconditionally Elects to Regenerate some Men, such that they will Repent.

Reprobation unto Eternal Death is conditioned upon a Man's Choice to Sin.
Election unto Eternal Life is conditioned upon none of Man's Choices (for the unregenerated man will always choose to reject God), but is Unconditionally effected by God Alone in his choice to regenerate some unto Repentance.

Not only does the WCF not "emphatically repudiate a conditional reprobation", the WCF emphatically teaches a Conditional Reprobation. Ch. III, sec. 7; ch. VI sec. 6; ch. XXXIII sec. 1&2. Do you even bother to read Protestant Creeds, or just repeat something that perhaps Karl Keating may have babbled in a moment of delirium?

Sorry. I cut and pasted that from here: "British Reformed Journal, The Well-Meant Offer and Reprobation, Ron Hanko"

Unfortunately, they also deny the reality of Spiritual Death, as defined by the Bible according to the doctrine of Original Sin

Maybe you could tell me where they deny this?

Calvinism teaches Conditional Reprobation, and Unconditional Election. Catholic Church dogma:
GOD, BY HIS ETERNAL RESOLVE OF WILL, HAS PREDETERMINED CERTAIN MEN TO ETERNAL BLESSEDNESS (De fide)
This doctrine is proposed by the Ordinary and General Teaching of the Church as a truth of Revelation. The doctrinal definitions of the Council of Trent presuppose it . . . The reality of Predestination is clearly attested to in Rom 8:29 et seq: . . . cf. Mt 25:34, Jn 10:27 et seq., Acts 13:48, Eph 1:4 et seq. . . . Predestination is a part of the Eternal Divine Plan of Providence.

The RCC doesn't frame it's dogma in terms of eternal decrees, making it a bit difficult to compare.

Yep...


Mat 23:9   And call no [man] your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

Mat 23:10   Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, [even] Christ.

Mat 23:11   But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.

Mat 23:12   And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

Mat 23:13   But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in [yourselves], neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

Mat 23:14   Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

Mat 23:15   Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

Mat 23:16   Woe unto you, [ye] blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!

Mat 23:17   [Ye] fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?

Mat 23:18   And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty.

Mat 23:19   [Ye] fools and blind: for whether [is] greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?

Mat 23:20   Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon.

Mat 23:21   And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein.

Mat 23:22   And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.

Mat 23:23   Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier [matters] of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Mat 23:24   [Ye] blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

Mat 23:25   Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

Mat 23:26   [Thou] blind Pharisee, cleanse first that [which is] within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

Mat 23:27   Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead [men's] bones, and of all uncleanness.

Mat 23:28   Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

Mat 23:29   Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,

Mat 23:30   And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.

Mat 23:31   Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.

Mat 23:32   Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

Mat 23:33   [Ye] serpents, [ye] generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Mat 23:34   Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and [some] of them ye shall kill and crucify; and [some] of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute [them] from city to city:

Because it is so ordained by God that it be the method of Salvation..also because we take the word of God very seriously and hate having it compromised..

That's what I thought too. You can't stop preaching even if election is predestined.

Unfortunately, they also deny the reality of Spiritual Death, as defined by the Bible according to the doctrine of Original Sin ~~ Maybe you could tell me where they deny this?

Let's test the matter here. (I'll cite some Council of Trent in a moment, but let's start with an example -- yourself).

Do you believe that an Unregenerate Man will ever "Believe", "choose God", "decide for Jesus", "Repent", or exhibit Saving Faith in any other such way?

Or, just to refine the matter a bit more, do you believe that an Unregenerate Man will co-operate with Grace in the attainment of Salvation?

That's what I thought too. You can't stop preaching even if election is predestined.

God has also ordained the means of Election, namely preaching, See Romans 10:13-15.

The visible evidence of one's election is obedience.

By the way:

Sorry. I cut and pasted that from here: "British Reformed Journal, The Well-Meant Offer and Reprobation, Ron Hanko"

Okay doke. I read the Hanko article. His language goes beyond Westminster, in a similar way to that in which Luther says "God foreknew nothing contingently". I don't think that's exactly correct; it would be more correct to say "God foreknows nothing as contingent in itself (for nothing exists independent of His decision to create), but only foreknows as contingent those things which He has decreed will be contingent upon Conditions which He has himself decreed".

It's a little more wordy (actually a lot more wordy) but is more strictly accurate and certainly more true to Westminster than is Hanko's wording, IMHO.

Which just goes to show, always check the Original Source. By the same token, don't necessarily believe me when I say "Roman Catholics teach that..."; ask for a citation from a Council or Papal Bull. A good discipline for all of us.

Anyway, getting back to my questions in 1506 and 1507......

You can't stop preaching even if election is predestined.

Agreed

1Cr 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

Did God want, or perhaps need an help meet?

You're not serious.
Are you?

Okay, if you hadn't already, go look up the definition of "aseity" and try to compose for me a post on how violation of the Aseity principle would overthrow the entire doctrine of Deity.

Maybe, you'll manage to correct your own mistake. If not, I'll offer my suggestions. But, you can have a go at it first; just attempt the exercise I suggest.

Best, OP

Sorry I took so long. Actually I was mostly serious. I could be seriously wrong, but I am not ready to give up yet. After reading several articles on Aseity, I know why my ideas are not readily received. I took the following statement from one of the articles because it doesn’t sit well with me.

“But it is obvious that the mutability implied in this belongs to creatures, and not to the Creator; and it is a strange confusion of thought that has led some modern Theists -- even professing Christians -- to maintain that such attributes can be laid aside by God, and that the Logos in becoming incarnate actually did lay them aside, or at least ceased from their active exercise. But as creation itself did not affect the immutability of God, so neither did the incarnation of a Divine Person; whatever change was involved in either case took place solely in the created nature.”

Before I challenge this statement, let me point out that the last sentence actually gives me room for my original statement. Mind you, I do not challenge lightly. This forum has made me painfully aware of my ignorance.

1 Cor. 15:46 “Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.”

First birth = natural birth Second birth = spiritual birth

First death = natural death Second death = spiritual death

First resurrection = natural resurrection Second resurrection = spiritual resurrection?

The order, natural then spiritual is established by I Cor. 15:46, and supported by many examples in scriptures: the first man, first manna, first bread, first Creation, firstborn son of at least four of the men in the genealogy of Christ in Genesis, the three examples above and more. The order of the trinity, birth, death, and resurrection, is established in nature and therefore implied in the spirit, because “the invisible things of him … being understood by the things that are made.” There are no fewer than seven trinities with the same general structure in the first chapter of Genesis. Add to that the obvious correspondence to “The Trinity,” and more, and you begin to see a pattern, which runs through all Scripture and nature.

One nice thing about looking at the details of Scriptures is that there are so many of them. Individually they do not hold much weight but if you put enough threads together, you will come up with a threefold cord, which is not quickly broken.

I suspect that you disagree at this point because of one of your previous post.

". How do I know this? Because neither Adam not Eve experienced Spiritual Death when they touched the Fruit of Trial -- but only when they ate it. “

(From post 773 on another thread.) Here you have Adam dying the second death first, and though it is appointed unto men once to die, you have him dying twice. (Adam died the first death more than 800 years later.) At this point, I need to stop and get your thoughts so I can decide which direction to go from here. Here is something for you to think about. If you accept these premises, the second resurrection, which is not mentioned in scripture, takes an interesting turn. The second resurrection, if there is one, would have to come after the second death.

Respectfully submitted.

The problem with quoting the Old Testament regarding unbaptized babies going to heaven is though Christ existed before the "Word was made flesh" the sacrament of baptism had not yet been instituted so we are not dealing with unbaptized children in the OT. We are really comparing apples to oranges.
This is just my thought but I look at it this way: faith comes through hearing, so a dead child (a stillborn or a child that has died before the age of cognicent thought)would not have known of Jesus Christ and had no input on whether to deny Christ and reject baptism. So, in this case the child would not be guilty of disbelief (unbelief or whatever you want to call it) and this unbelief is what really damns the soul - this rejection of Christ.