Grace vs Works!

Good News Unlimited ^ | November 2002 | Editorial

[f.Christian]

Good News For The Day

‘And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.’ (Romans 11:6)

Grace is enormously powerful; efficient. It is the kindness of God, by means of which he thinks lovingly, of each one, even before they are born. Them taking hold of them in life, brings them to Christ; to faith hope and love.

Though grace is dynamic-even formidable-there is something that can stop it being what it is, namely, works. Works is a shorthand term for human effort and ingenuity, aimed at achieving a safe and secure relationship with God. Such effort is contrary to grace. It also is effective, but in an opposite way, to grace. When placed alongside grace as a supplement, it changes grace's nature so that grace stops being grace.

The religion that Jesus brought to the world is all grace. In other words it is a religion that is about God; about the competence of God; the working of God; the creative achievement of God. This religion will not bear the admixture of the slightest addition of creative human effort into the equation. Before the religious activity of men and women can be added, the project must needs have been completed by God. Indeed, this is the very point the apostle wishes to make. Spiritual finality, and closure for humans beings, is achieved absolutely, for them, by God, through Christ. God does this in his kindness, or grace. All that is left for human agents to do, is adore. "Theology is grace; ethics is gratitude."

[pgyanke]

"Don't put me in your box---mind set!"

---

I'm in no box. I acknowledge and appreciate God's saving plan and don't discount those areas I find troublesome to my point of view. I research to understand how they fit together.

A box in this sense might be someone who is stuck in a particular mind set that is refuted, at least in part, by a significant work in the book he quotes for backup.

Who's in a box?

I have to run now. It's been an interesting conversation. I'll try to check in later to see if anything else catches my attention.

[wai-ming]

Thanks for setting the record straight.

It is exactly opposite of what you have been told.

So the whole idea that being "good" gets us to heaven, and being "bad" gets us to hell is False Doctrine.

I wonder how many other false doctrines are being promoted in order to keep people in line.

[PFKEY]

John 6:28-29 Then said they unto him what shall we do that we might work the work of God. Jesus answered and said This is the work of God, believe on Him Who He has sent.

Good passage to site.

Are you of the position that this is the only requirement for salvation?

Would the act of believing be considered a work?

Are there any passages that you could site that would be in contradiction to your position?

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Are you of the position that this is the only requirement for salvation?

For salvation, yes.

Would the act of believing be considered a work?

Obviously it could be considered a work. That is what Jesus called it. But it is the only work required for salvation according to Jesus, so it is acceptable.

Are there any passages that you could site that would be in contradiction to your position?

I'm sure taken out of context you can find some.

Becky

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

So the whole idea that being "good" gets us to heaven, and being "bad" gets us to hell is False Doctrine.

Yes.

I wonder how many other false doctrines are being promoted in order to keep people in line.

That you can lose your salvation.

Becky

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Heb. 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Heb. 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrafice for sins for ever sat down on the right hand of God.

Heb. 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected forever them that are sanctifed.

Salvation is a done deal at the time that we truly commit our lives into his keeping. And he will keep us. This is not a license to sin. But we will still sin. But those sins were taken care of at the cross.

If you believe that you can lose your salvation then you are saying that in essence Jesus death was not good enough to keep you saved and you have to help out.

Becky

[Salvation]

Please reference the entire chapter and this verse with footnotes, specifically, as focused on the remnant.

Romans
Chapter 11

1

¹ I ask, then, has God rejected his people? Of course not! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2

God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the scripture says about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?

3

"Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have torn down your altars, and I alone am left, and they are seeking my life."

4

But what is God's response to him? "I have left for myself seven thousand men who have not knelt to Baal."

5

So also at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace.

6

But if by grace, it is no longer because of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

7

What then? What Israel was seeking it did not attain, but the elect attained it; the rest were hardened,

8

as it is written: "God gave them a spirit of deep sleep, eyes that should not see and ears that should not hear, down to this very day."

9

And David says: "Let their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution for them;

10

let their eyes grow dim so that they may not see, and keep their backs bent forever."

11

² Hence I ask, did they stumble so as to fall? Of course not! But through their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make them jealous.

12

Now if their transgression is enrichment for the world, and if their diminished number is enrichment for the Gentiles, how much more their full number.

13

Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I glory in my ministry

14

in order to make my race jealous and thus save some of them.

15

For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

16

³ If the firstfruits are holy, so is the whole batch of dough; and if the root is holy, so are the branches.

17

But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, were grafted in their place and have come to share in the rich root of the olive tree,

18

do not boast against the branches. If you do boast, consider that you do not support the root; the root supports you.

19

Indeed you will say, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."

20

That is so. They were broken off because of unbelief, but you are there because of faith. So do not become haughty, but stand in awe.

21

For if God did not spare the natural branches, (perhaps) he will not spare you either.

22

See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.

23

And they also, if they do not remain in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

24

For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated one, how much more will they who belong to it by nature be grafted back into their own olive tree.

25

⁴ I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not become wise (in) your own estimation: a hardening has come upon Israel in part, until the full number of the Gentiles comes in,

26

and thus all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The deliverer will come out of Zion, he will turn away godlessness from Jacob;

27

and this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins."

28

In respect to the gospel, they are enemies on your account; but in respect to election, they are beloved because of the patriarchs.

29

For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.

30

⁵Just as you once disobeyed God but have now received mercy because of their disobedience,

31

so they have now disobeyed in order that, by virtue of the mercy shown to you, they too may (now) receive mercy.

32

For God delivered all to disobedience, that he might have mercy upon all.

33

⁶ Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How inscrutable are his judgments and how unsearchable his ways!

34

"For who has known the mind of the Lord ⁷ or who has been his counselor?"

35

⁸ "Or who has given him anything that he may be repaid?"

36

For from him and through him and for him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.

Table of Contents Previous Chapter Next Chapter

Footnotes

¹ [1-10] Although Israel has been unfaithful to the prophetic message of the gospel (Romans 10:14-21), God remains faithful to Israel. Proof of the divine fidelity lies in the existence of Jewish Christians like Paul himself. The unbelieving Jews, says Paul, have been blinded by the Christian teaching concerning the Messiah.

² [11-15] The unbelief of the Jews has paved the way for the preaching of the gospel to the Gentiles and for their easier acceptance of it outside the context of Jewish culture. Through his mission to the Gentiles Paul also hopes to fill his fellow Jews with jealousy. Hence he hastens to fill the entire Mediterranean world with the gospel. Once all the Gentile nations have heard the gospel, Israel as a whole is expected to embrace it. This will be tantamount to resurrection of the dead, that is, the reappearance of Jesus Christ with all the believers at the end of time.

³ [16-24] Israel remains holy in the eyes of God and stands as a witness to the faith described in the Old Testament because of the firstfruits (or the first piece baked) (Romans 11:16), that is, the converted remnant, and the root that is holy, that is, the patriarchs (Romans 11:16). The Jews' failure to believe in Christ is a warning to Gentile Christians to be on guard against any semblance of anti-Jewish arrogance, that is, failure to recognize their total dependence on divine grace.

⁴ [25-29] In God's design, Israel's unbelief is being used to grant the light of faith to the Gentiles. Meanwhile, Israel remains dear to God (cf Romans 9:13), still the object of special providence, the mystery of which will one day be revealed.

⁵ [30-32] Israel, together with the Gentiles who have been handed over to all manner of vices (Romans 1), has been delivered . . . to disobedience. The conclusion of Romans 11:32 repeats the thought of Romans 5:20, "Where sin increased, grace overflowed all the more."

⁶ [33-36] This final reflection celebrates the wisdom of God's plan of salvation. As Paul has indicated throughout these chapters, both Jew and Gentile, despite the religious recalcitrance of each, have received the gift of faith. The methods used by God in making this outreach to the world stagger human comprehension but are at the same time a dazzling invitation to abiding faith.

⁷ The citation is from the Greek text of Isaiah 40:13. Paul does not explicitly mention Isaiah in this verse, nor Job in 11:35.

⁸ Paul quotes from an old Greek version of Jb 41, 3a, which differs from the Hebrew text (Job 41:11a).

[pgyanke]

"If you believe that you can lose your salvation then you are saying that in essence Jesus death was not good enough to keep you saved and you have to help out."

---

Not so. You seek to encapsulate a more complicated discussion into sound bites. I'm saying Jesus didn't take away our free will. We can still be tempted into sin and reject Him.

Acts 20:27 "For I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole purpose of God.
28 "Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.
29 "I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock;
30 and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them.

Acts 20:35 "In everything I showed you that by working hard in this manner you must help the weak and remember the words of the Lord Jesus, that He Himself said, 'It is more blessed to give than to receive.'"

James 1:2 Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials,
3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance.

James 1:12 Blessed is a man who perseveres under trial; for once he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.

James 1:14 But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust.
15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.
16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren.

James 1:22 But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves.
23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks at his natural face in a mirror;
24 for once he has looked at himself and gone away, he has immediately forgotten what kind of person he was.


There are many more to quote, but I think these make the point well enough. Believing isn't the end of our faith journey. There are trials to endure and we must persevere in service to God.

[wai-ming]

So, it's "once saved, always saved."

I see why the commandments are irrelevant.

I still find it unfair that the likes of Bill and Hillary go to heaven, while my Buddhist friends, who never even hurt a fly, go straight to hell.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

I never said that Bill and Hil will go to heaven:) Only God can know for sure what is in someone's heart. There are alot of people who claim to be Christians but are not. There are a lot of people who live like heathens but are Christian. We cannot judge someone's eternity for sure.

We can look at someone's life and make a judgement call, but we are not to judge. Judgement call on BILL AND Hill in my opinion is they are not Christians. That is why works are important because of the witness they have on our fellow man, and leading others to CHrist should be our main goal in our Christian life. How many people do you think would take Bill and Hill seriously if they were to try to lead someone to Christ?

Becky

[pgyanke]

I thought this was the strongest argument against our being able to lose salvation in your whole chapter citation: "29 For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."

I agree with this wholeheartedly and nothing I have said in this thread has been contradictory to the book of Romans. However, the book of Romans taken out of context is incomplete. The letters of the New Testament were mostly written to specific peoples on specific topics. They, individually, do not tell the whole story...just the piece in contention. For example, if we relied on the letters of the New Testament alone, we wouldn't know the full Gospel story. It's alluded to and referenced, but not told in its entirety. Only the areas of issue are addressed.

Likewise in this quote above, the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable. Absolutely! The word "revoke" means to bring or call back. The gifts and call of God can't be called back by us... we didn't initiate the action. This passage says that God will not take back his promises. It doesn't say that we can't reject Him. It is a promise that the gifts of God will be there for the faithful, he will not pull them back. The receiver of the gift has no authority to change the agreement, only accept or reject it.

[WriteOn]

Then our works become evidence of that trust in Jesus. Trust that he will keep me to the end.

And what of "no works" then -- doesn't that mean you are not saved? How are you different than a pagan without works? And if you believe you will be saved without works how is that not antinomianism?

[f.Christian]

Good News For The Day

‘love your neighbor as yourself.’ (Matthew 22:39)

"A commission of public enquiry, conducted in a Western country recently, sounded a desperate note for the future of human relations. It warned: "The most pressing problem in this country seems to be for its people to learn to live again in a real community, where people are concerned for one another's welfare."

"Fyodor Dostoyevsky said: "I could never understand how one could love one's neighbor. It's just one's neighbors, to my mind, that one can't love-though one might love those at a distance. The more I love humanity in general, the less I love man in particular."

"The sad truth of human beings is, that they can... love the idea of love---but find themselves incapable of practicing it."

"We easily talk of loving our neighbor, but baulk like Balaam's ass when it comes to doing it. In the last 100 years normal human beings have murdered one hundred million of their fellows. Since the two world wars of last century, we have readied ourselves to a shocking level of preparedness, to violate and exterminate our neighbors on an awful scale. Karl Barth commented, that it only needed the atom and the hydrogen bomb to complete the self disclosure of human nature. In other words, the stark malignancy of human evil-our unwillingness to love-is now writ large."

"Over against the disease of lovelessness, stands the injunction: "Love your neighbor as yourself." We know this law asks more of us than we can give, but we also know that without it, we shall perish. Our only hope, is that God will love us in spite of our weakness, and that he will patiently fashion us after his likeness."

[wai-ming]

You're right. We have no right to judge others.

But under the "once saved, always saved" philosophy, people who profess to be Christians have a free ticket to heaven, regardless of their behaviour. That does not sit well with me, considering all the name-only Christians. In my opinion, one should also "walk the talk," and that implies behaviour.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

But under the "once saved, always saved" philosophy, people who profess to be Christians have a free ticket to heaven, regardless of their behaviour.

Several things here. As I said before professing to be Christians and actually being Christian are two different things.

Free ticket. No it is a free gift, no strings attached.

Regardless of behavior, yes and no. Yes salvation is gain regardless of behavior, but no, it is not a licesnse to sin. A true Christian will avoid sin as best they can, out of obedience, thanksgiving, love and praise. (Have we come full circle:). Their sins will make them feel truly sorrowful for hurting God, and they will try to do better with varying amounts of success, depending on how much they are letting the Spirit guide them.

It is hard for me to accept that murders, rapist etc, could possibly go to heaven, or that people who are good and doing good things all the time won't make it to heaven. It doesn't seem right. But it is possible, and God is a perfect judge, and we have to trust that.

Becky

[f.Christian]

"God has given us this gospel not merely for the purpose of securing to us life hereafter, but of making us sure of this life even now. It is a true and sure gospel; so that he who believes it is made sure of being saved. If it could not make us sure, it would make us miserable; for to be told of such a salvation and such a glory, yet kept in doubt as to whether they are to be ours or not, must render us truly wretched. What a... poor gospel---it must be, which leaves the man who believes it still in doubt as to whether he is a child of God, an unpardoned or a pardoned sinner! Till we have found forgiveness, we cannot be happy; we cannot serve God gladly or lovingly; but must be in some bondage or gloom."

"The Bible gives no quarter to unbelief or doubting. It does not call it humility. It does not teach us to think better of ourselves for doubting. It does not countenance uncertainty or darkness."

"Thus the questions about assurance resolve themselves into that of the knowledge of our relationship to God. To an Arminian, who denies election and the perseverance of the saints, the knowledge of our present reconciliation to God might bring with it no assurance of final salvation; for; according to him, we may be in reconciliation today, and out of it tomorrow; but to a Calvinist there can be no such separation. He who is once reconciled is reconciled for ever; and the knowledge of filial relationship just now is the assurance of eternal salvation. Indeed, apart from God's electing love, there can be no such thing as assurance. It becomes an impossibility."

"For we are not saved by believing in our own salvation, nor by believing anything whatsoever about ourselves. We are saved by what we believe about the Son of God and His righteousness. The gospel believed saves; not the believing in our own faith. Nevertheless, let us know that assurance was meant to be the portion of every believing sinner. It was intended not merely that he should be saved, but that he should know that he is saved, and so delivered from all fear and bondage, and heaviness of heart."

amen

[wai-ming]

God is a perfect judge, and we have to trust that.

I'll leave it at that.

's been fun debating with you. We'll have to do it again sometime.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

I will second your amen:)

Becky

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

I enjoyed the discussion also.

God Bless.

Becky

[Quester]

So, it's "once saved, always saved."

Yes, ... by the grace of God.

I see why the commandments are irrelevant.

The commandments exist to show us our own personal moral imperfection, and, thus, our need for God's forgiveness and salvation.

I still find it unfair that the likes of Bill and Hillary go to heaven, while my Buddhist friends, who never even hurt a fly, go straight to hell.

Actually, this issue is bigger than who's good and who's bad.

Truth is ... we have all done badly.

Even those Buddhists, ... who wouldn't hurt a fly, ... have not performed up to the level that God requires, ... for one could easily say that the time which they spend in meditative inaction ... though beneficial to their inner selves ... was time which they could have spent in selfless service to others ... much like Mother Teresa, for example.

Note that the one (JESUS) who the Bible describes as perfect in the eyes of God, did not sequester Himself from the people around Him, who were, ... many of them, dealing with the daily pains and sufferings of life ... disease ... death ... hunger ... thirst ... etc.

JESUS went out among the people and did good unto them. He healed their diseases ... He raised their dead ... He comforted their hurts ... He forgave their imperfections.

Finally, He allowed His own death to provide spiritual healing to all who will believe.

He gave up His life, ... and, what a life of service it was ... for my life ... for your life ... for the lives of your Buddhist friends.

So, now ... the issue is not whether you've been good, though you surely could have been better, ... or ... whether you've been bad, no doubt most of us could have been worse.

In recognition of your being somewhere in-between being perfectly good ... and perfectly evil, ... God has made a way for you to come into His kingdom, regardless of where you fall along the good-evil continuum.

Significantly, it required the suffering and death-experience of His only Son, JESUS.

Now there are some who believe that God has, indeed, done this for them ... these God saves, while there are others who, by their disbelief, disregard what God has done for them ... these remain lost.

The Biblical account of the Great Flood is an excellent analogy to the necessity of belief (and only belief) for salvation.

If you recall ... God decided to bring a flood upon all the earth to destroy an unceasingly corrupt and evil mankind.

Graciously, God finds a 'good' man, Noah (a prototype of JESUS), and commands him to construct the ark, which will shelter all those who come into it from the coming deadly flood.

Noah builds the ark, and, concurrently, preaches to the people in the world around him that God is going to bring a deadly flood upon the earth, BUT that, ... simultaneously, ... He has provided a way of escape ... the ark.

We all know the end of the story ... noone believes Noah (speaking for God) and none of mankind but Noah's own family board the ark the week prior to the prosephied flood, as God has commanded. When the time for boarding is passed, God, Himself, closes the door.

Note ... noone could get in ... and noone could get out.

When the raindrops start to fall, many rush to the ark for safety ... but, alas, it is too late, for the door is closed ... and none may open it but God.

Those soon to be swallowed up by many torrents of waters had missed their chance ... if only they had believed God, ... but they did not ... and so, they soon perish.

So, now, as then, the issue is ... who has believed God in regard to His declaration that He has prepared an ark of safety, this time, by allowing His only Son to experience suffering and death so that all who would might be saved.

So, now, as then, ... the question is ... have you believed God and entered into the ark of His salvation?

Whether your deeds are good or evil, it is the ark that saves. Will you enter in ?

1 John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

1 John 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

1 John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.