Grace vs Works!

‘And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.’ (Romans 11:6)

Grace is enormously powerful; efficient. It is the kindness of God, by means of which he thinks lovingly, of each one, even before they are born. Them taking hold of them in life, brings them to Christ; to faith hope and love.

Though grace is dynamic-even formidable-there is something that can stop it being what it is, namely, works. Works is a shorthand term for human effort and ingenuity, aimed at achieving a safe and secure relationship with God. Such effort is contrary to grace. It also is effective, but in an opposite way, to grace. When placed alongside grace as a supplement, it changes grace's nature so that grace stops being grace.

The religion that Jesus brought to the world is all grace. In other words it is a religion that is about God; about the competence of God; the working of God; the creative achievement of God. This religion will not bear the admixture of the slightest addition of creative human effort into the equation. Before the religious activity of men and women can be added, the project must needs have been completed by God. Indeed, this is the very point the apostle wishes to make. Spiritual finality, and closure for humans beings, is achieved absolutely, for them, by God, through Christ. God does this in his kindness, or grace. All that is left for human agents to do, is adore. "Theology is grace; ethics is gratitude."

I have always been told: "be good and you go to heaven; be bad and you go to hell." Now you're saying that that's a lie. Behaviour doesn't matter!

Behavior doesn't matter where salvation is concerned.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemnd:but he that believeth not is condemned alreay, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

What does this verse say? It is exactly opposite of what you have been told. It is belief that saves and unbelief that condemns.

But if obedience is irrelevant, why bother to have commandments in the first place?

Do you understand what you are being saved from? Eternal punishment. Punishment that we cannot even imagine. Now being saved from that by someone who did not have to do it, who was perfect and would never have been punished himself but took your punishment deserves at least your obedince, thanksgiving and praise?

You're suggesting that there is a correlation between behaviour and salvation. Is there now, really? Think about it.

I am suggesting no such thing. Our behavior is important. But not FOR salvation but because of it. Think about it.:)

Becky

"Behavior doesn't matter where salvation is concerned."

Bunk! Our behavior DOES matter. Not because God is giving us merits and demerits but because our behavior affects who we are. It's true that in believing we have salvation... but salvation can be lost. Don't believe me? It would have been better for the 12th apostle had he never been born. Jesus didn't call nonbelievers. One of his friends betrayed Him in an act of weakness and then committed suicide over his actions.

God can bring us all to heaven right now, if that was His plan for salvation. It's not. The whole of history is Him developing us as His people. He doesn't wipe our faults under the rug, he accepts them and teaches us to grow. We, on the other hand, can reject Him through our own failings. Like a good parent, He wants us to succeed... but we have choices to make by our free will. Salvation is a free gift but sin can keep us from accepting the gift out of our own feelings of unworthiness and abandonment. God doesn't change, we do.

Jesus told us that what we do for the least of His people, we do unto Him. He taught us to pray. He commanded the apostles to make disciples of all the nations. All of these are actions. We're not earning browny points in doing God's work, we are learning about His plan and growing in our faith. God gave us works to train us. Are works a requirement for gaining salvation? No. But they may keep you from losing it.

If God didn't care how we conducted our lives, there would be no book of Proverbs.

Explain John 3:18

There is evidence in the bible that Judas did not trust in Jesus. He was a thief, there was no love in his heart. And then he betrayed him.

Why would Jesus who love us enough come save us and take our punishment for our sins because he knew we could never save ourselves, then leave us on our own to keep ourselves saved. That doesn't make sense. We can't keep ourselves saved anymore then we can get ourselves saved.

Look at Heb. 6:19 Which hope we have as an anchor of the sould, both sure and steadfast and which entereth into that within the veil.

Becky

I know that some like to separate grace and good works but that's impossible. Oh sure, grace is what gets us to heaven, grace is what merits, grace comes from God, etc. but we all have a role in it. Otherwise the following is wrong and we can't say that because it also is the word of God.

"Know this, my beloved brethren. Let every man be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger, for the anger of man does not work the righteousness of God. Therefore put away all filthiness and rank growth of wickedness and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls. But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. For if any one is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who observes his natural face in a mirror; for he observes himself and goes away and at once forgets what he was like. But he who looks into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and perseveres, being no hearer that forgets but a doer that acts, he shall be blessed in his doing. If any one thinks he is religious, and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, this man's religion is vain. Religion that is pure and undefiled before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world." [James 1:19-27]

"Why would Jesus who love us enough come save us and take our punishment for our sins because he knew we could never save ourselves, then leave us on our own to keep ourselves saved. That doesn't make sense. We can't keep ourselves saved anymore then we can get ourselves saved."

Adam and Eve.

They lived in the Garden of Eden and enjoyed God's personal presence. Despite this, they chose of their own free will to disobey God. This is the original sin and the reason Jesus had to die to save us. There is nothing to suggest they distrusted God or had any doubts about their relationship prior to their temptation.

We still have our free will and salvation is still ours to claim. However, we are not passive followers of Christ--we have an active role in the world. It's not to earn salvation but to learn the will of God. We do this by doing as God has instructed. We ignore his instruction to our own peril. Not His... ours.

Jesus didn't leave us on our own. He gave us His Spirit to strengthen us. We have power and glory in Christ Jesus. We haven't been left to our own devices. We, however, have always had the power to reject Him.

It makes far more sense than to assume that your behavior in this world has no consequence to your immortal soul. Your behavior can either strengthen your walk with God or drag you from it. Therein lies your active choice.

No that is not what I am saying.

But what is the will of God. To be saved is all that is needed is belief that we are a sinner, we need a savior, and Jesus Chirsts death burial and resurection is what saves us.

Then our works become evidence of that trust in Jesus. Trust that he will keep me to the end.

2 Tim. 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

Becky

See your post #61.

You can see my position very clearly in what I have already written... salvation is a gift. Works are also a gift to train the flesh.

We are not saved by the works we do but we can be lost through our own sin and disobedience. Sin and works are opposites. One drags the soul from God, the other helps keep us from wavering in our devotion.

There is a difference, sure. However, it's not so cut and dry to say that works have no place in our salvation.

"Religion is fashionable in our age. But is it that which sprang up, after centuries of darkness, among our fathers in Europe? Is it that of apostles and prophets? Is it the calm yet thorough religion which did such great deeds in other days? Has it gone deep into the conscience? Has it filled the heart? Has it pervaded the man? Or has it left the conscience unpacified, the heart unfilled, the man unchanged, save with some external appliances of religiousness, which leaves him hollow as before? There is at this moment many an aching spirit, bitterly conscious of this hollowness. The doctrine, the profession, the good report of others, the bustle of work, will not fill the soul. God Himself must be there, with His covering righteousness, His cleansing blood, His quickening Spirit."

Without... this--religion is but a shell: holy services are dull and irksome."

"Joy in God, which is the soul and essence of worship, is unknown. Sacraments, prayer-meetings, religious services, labours of charity, will not make up for the living God."

"How much of unreality there may be in the religious life of our age, it is for each individual to determine for himself, that he may not be deceived nor lose his reward."(1)

"All unreality is weakness as well as irksomeness; and the sooner that we are stripped of unreality the better, both for peace and for usefulness."

I went to your link. I looked at what they had to offer. I'm not terribly impressed.

As with all I have encountered on this subject, you and they completely disregard the book of James. For those who take scripture so seriously, this is a significant omission. Without the book of James, the bible is in disarray on the subject.

Why have a book of Proverbs telling us how to live?
Why have the Ten Commandments? Jesus fulfilled the law, not one letter was changed.
Why be taught to pray by Jesus? Belief is all that matters, not prayer, right?
Why be given instruction on our actions from Jesus, and the apostles after Him, if He doesn't care what we do?

The book of James answers these questions. The works we are instructed to undertake for God discipline our flesh for the benefit of the spirit. It's not working for salvation, it's midnight basketball for the soul--keeping us from harm.

We could significantly cut back on the number of pages in the New Testament if your interpretation is the correct one. There's no reason to tell us about morality and living for Christ if our salvation is nothing more than belief. You have to take into consideration the road of life after you have accepted Christ. We are under constant spiritual assault. We keep our whole mind, soul and strength focused on God through working for God's will.

In the absence of such, you get far too many examples in history of those who lose their way in sin.

"The men of robust spiritual health are they who, like Luther, have made sure of their filial relationship to God. They shrink from no battle, nor succumb to any toil. The men who go to work with an unascertained relationship give way in the warfare, and faint under the labour: their life is not perhaps a failure or defeat; but it is not a victory, it is not a triumph."

"We do not war after the flesh," and "our weapons are not carnal" (2 Cor 10:3,4). Our battle is not fought in the way that the old man would have us to fight it. It is "the fight of faith" (1 Tim 6:12). It is not by doubting but by believing that we are saved; it is not by doubting but by believing that we overcome. Faith leads us first of all to Abel's "more excellent sacrifice" (Heb 11:4). By faith we quit Ur and Egypt and Babylon, setting our face to the eternal city (Heb 11:16). By faith we offer up our Isaacs, and worship "leaning on the top of our staffs," and "give commandment concerning our bones." By faith we choose affliction with the people of God, and despise Egypt's treasures. By faith we keep our passover; pass through the Red Sea; overthrow Jerichos; subdue kingdoms; work righteousness; stop the mouth of lions; quench the violence of fire; turn to flight the armies of the aliens, and refuse deliverance in the day of trial, that we may obtain a better resurrection" (Heb 11:35).

"It is "believing" from first to last. We begin, we go on, we end in faith. The faith that justifies is the faith that overcomes (1 John 5:4). By faith we obtain the "good report" both with God and man. By faith we receive forgiveness; by faith we live; by faith we work, and endure, and suffer; by faith we win the crown,-a crown of righteousness, which shall be ours in the day of the appearing of Him who is OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS."

..."refuse deliverance in the day of trial"---

There's no reason to tell us about morality and living for Christ if our salvation is nothing more than belief.

St. Paul's letters are loaded with moral code. Another point is that "belief" in Greek means not just an ascent of the mind but a total embracing of the instruction which puts a whole new meaning on "belief".

By faith we offer up our Isaacs, and worship "leaning on the top of our staffs," and "give commandment concerning our bones."

Ok, let's go there. Let's talk about offering up Isaac. Do you suppose God didn't know the faith of Abraham? Of course, He knew. What is the purpose in Abraham's sacrifice of his son? It's surely not for the sacrifice or God would have let him complete his action. It was for the founding of a covenant. The covenant was offered by God to Abraham because Abraham was willing to DO all that God required of him. Abraham DEMONSTRATED his faith in the action of the attempted sacrifice and God counted this to him as righteousness.

Our faith is not to be a passive belief within us. It's to be lived in our lives. Faith without works is empty. Works without faith are meaningless. There is a place for them BOTH in our lives.

In all of your cutting and pasting of other people's thoughts on the subject, you have completely omitted the book of James. Open your bible (you will find it in there) and expand your understanding of the subject. You can't simply disregard those parts of the bible that don't fit your view.

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