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Luther's 95 Thesis Happy Reformation Day
http://www.gty.org/~phil/history/95theses.htm ^ | Martin Luther

Posted on 10/31/2002 2:46:58 PM PST by Wrigley

Project Wittenberg Disputation of Doctor Martin Luther on the Power and Efficacy of Indulgences by Dr. Martin Luther, 1517

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Martin Luther - Project Wittenberg

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Disputation of Doctor Martin Luther on the Power and Efficacy of Indulgences by Dr. Martin Luther (1517)

Published in:

Works of Martin Luther: Adolph Spaeth, L.D. Reed, Henry Eyster Jacobs, et Al., Trans. & Eds. (Philadelphia: A. J. Holman Company, 1915), Vol.1, pp. 29-38 _______________

[10] [20] [30] [40] [50] [60] [70] [80] [90] Out of love for the truth and the desire to bring it to light, the following propositions will be discussed at Wittenberg, under the presidency of the Reverend Father Martin Luther, Master of Arts and of Sacred Theology, and Lecturer in Ordinary on the same at that place. Wherefore he requests that those who are unable to be present and debate orally with us, may do so by letter.

In the Name our Lord Jesus Christ. Amen.

1. Our Lord and Master Jesus Christ, when He said Poenitentiam agite, willed that the whole life of believers should be repentance.

2. This word cannot be understood to mean sacramental penance, i.e., confession and satisfaction, which is administered by the priests.

3. Yet it means not inward repentance only; nay, there is no inward repentance which does not outwardly work divers mortifications of the flesh.

4. The penalty [of sin], therefore, continues so long as hatred of self continues; for this is the true inward repentance, and continues until our entrance into the kingdom of heaven.

5. The pope does not intend to remit, and cannot remit any penalties other than those which he has imposed either by his own authority or by that of the Canons.

6. The pope cannot remit any guilt, except by declaring that it has been remitted by God and by assenting to God's remission; though, to be sure, he may grant remission in cases reserved to his judgment. If his right to grant remission in such cases were despised, the guilt would remain entirely unforgiven.

7. God remits guilt to no one whom He does not, at the same time, humble in all things and bring into subjection to His vicar, the priest.

8. The penitential canons are imposed only on the living, and, according to them, nothing should be imposed on the dying.

9. Therefore the Holy Spirit in the pope is kind to us, because in his decrees he always makes exception of the article of death and of necessity.

10. Ignorant and wicked are the doings of those priests who, in the case of the dying, reserve canonical penances for purgatory.

11. This changing of the canonical penalty to the penalty of purgatory is quite evidently one of the tares that were sown while the bishops slept.

12. In former times the canonical penalties were imposed not after, but before absolution, as tests of true contrition.

13. The dying are freed by death from all penalties; they are already dead to canonical rules, and have a right to be released from them.

14. The imperfect health [of soul], that is to say, the imperfect love, of the dying brings with it, of necessity, great fear; and the smaller the love, the greater is the fear.

15. This fear and horror is sufficient of itself alone (to say nothing of other things) to constitute the penalty of purgatory, since it is very near to the horror of despair.

16. Hell, purgatory, and heaven seem to differ as do despair, almost-despair, and the assurance of safety.

17. With souls in purgatory it seems necessary that horror should grow less and love increase.

18. It seems unproved, either by reason or Scripture, that they are outside the state of merit, that is to say, of increasing love.

19. Again, it seems unproved that they, or at least that all of them, are certain or assured of their own blessedness, though we may be quite certain of it.

20. Therefore by "full remission of all penalties" the pope means not actually "of all," but only of those imposed by himself.

21. Therefore those preachers of indulgences are in error, who say that by the pope's indulgences a man is freed from every penalty, and saved;

22. Whereas he remits to souls in purgatory no penalty which, according to the canons, they would have had to pay in this life.

23. If it is at all possible to grant to any one the remission of all penalties whatsoever, it is certain that this remission can be granted only to the most perfect, that is, to the very fewest.

24. It must needs be, therefore, that the greater part of the people are deceived by that indiscriminate and highsounding promise of release from penalty.

25. The power which the pope has, in a general way, over purgatory, is just like the power which any bishop or curate has, in a special way, within his own diocese or parish.

26. The pope does well when he grants remission to souls [in purgatory], not by the power of the keys (which he does not possess), but by way of intercession.

27. They preach man who say that so soon as the penny jingles into the money-box, the soul flies out [of purgatory].

28. It is certain that when the penny jingles into the money-box, gain and avarice can be increased, but the result of the intercession of the Church is in the power of God alone.

29. Who knows whether all the souls in purgatory wish to be bought out of it, as in the legend of Sts. Severinus and Paschal.

30. No one is sure that his own contrition is sincere; much less that he has attained full remission.

31. Rare as is the man that is truly penitent, so rare is also the man who truly buys indulgences, i.e., such men are most rare.

32. They will be condemned eternally, together with their teachers, who believe themselves sure of their salvation because they have letters of pardon.

33. Men must be on their guard against those who say that the pope's pardons are that inestimable gift of God by which man is reconciled to Him;

34. For these "graces of pardon" concern only the penalties of sacramental satisfaction, and these are appointed by man.

35. They preach no Christian doctrine who teach that contrition is not necessary in those who intend to buy souls out of purgatory or to buy confessionalia.

36. Every truly repentant Christian has a right to full remission of penalty and guilt, even without letters of pardon.

37. Every true Christian, whether living or dead, has part in all the blessings of Christ and the Church; and this is granted him by God, even without letters of pardon.

38. Nevertheless, the remission and participation [in the blessings of the Church] which are granted by the pope are in no way to be despised, for they are, as I have said, the declaration of divine remission.

39. It is most difficult, even for the very keenest theologians, at one and the same time to commend to the people the abundance of pardons and [the need of] true contrition.

40. True contrition seeks and loves penalties, but liberal pardons only relax penalties and cause them to be hated, or at least, furnish an occasion [for hating them].

41. Apostolic pardons are to be preached with caution, lest the people may falsely think them preferable to other good works of love.

42. Christians are to be taught that the pope does not intend the buying of pardons to be compared in any way to works of mercy.

43. Christians are to be taught that he who gives to the poor or lends to the needy does a better work than buying pardons;

44. Because love grows by works of love, and man becomes better; but by pardons man does not grow better, only more free from penalty.

45. 45. Christians are to be taught that he who sees a man in need, and passes him by, and gives [his money] for pardons, purchases not the indulgences of the pope, but the indignation of God.

46. Christians are to be taught that unless they have more than they need, they are bound to keep back what is necessary for their own families, and by no means to squander it on pardons.

47. Christians are to be taught that the buying of pardons is a matter of free will, and not of commandment.

48. Christians are to be taught that the pope, in granting pardons, needs, and therefore desires, their devout prayer for him more than the money they bring.

49. Christians are to be taught that the pope's pardons are useful, if they do not put their trust in them; but altogether harmful, if through them they lose their fear of God.

50. Christians are to be taught that if the pope knew the exactions of the pardon-preachers, he would rather that St. Peter's church should go to ashes, than that it should be built up with the skin, flesh and bones of his sheep.

51. Christians are to be taught that it would be the pope's wish, as it is his duty, to give of his own money to very many of those from whom certain hawkers of pardons cajole money, even though the church of St. Peter might have to be sold.

52. The assurance of salvation by letters of pardon is vain, even though the commissary, nay, even though the pope himself, were to stake his soul upon it.

53. They are enemies of Christ and of the pope, who bid the Word of God be altogether silent in some Churches, in order that pardons may be preached in others.

54. Injury is done the Word of God when, in the same sermon, an equal or a longer time is spent on pardons than on this Word.

55. It must be the intention of the pope that if pardons, which are a very small thing, are celebrated with one bell, with single processions and ceremonies, then the Gospel, which is the very greatest thing, should be preached with a hundred bells, a hundred processions, a hundred ceremonies.

56. The "treasures of the Church," out of which the pope. grants indulgences, are not sufficiently named or known among the people of Christ.

57. That they are not temporal treasures is certainly evident, for many of the vendors do not pour out such treasures so easily, but only gather them.

58. Nor are they the merits of Christ and the Saints, for even without the pope, these always work grace for the inner man, and the cross, death, and hell for the outward man.

59. St. Lawrence said that the treasures of the Church were the Church's poor, but he spoke according to the usage of the word in his own time.

60. Without rashness we say that the keys of the Church, given by Christ's merit, are that treasure;

61. For it is clear that for the remission of penalties and of reserved cases, the power of the pope is of itself sufficient.

62. The true treasure of the Church is the Most Holy Gospel of the glory and the grace of God.

63. But this treasure is naturally most odious, for it makes the first to be last.

64. On the other hand, the treasure of indulgences is naturally most acceptable, for it makes the last to be first.

65. Therefore the treasures of the Gospel are nets with which they formerly were wont to fish for men of riches.

66. The treasures of the indulgences are nets with which they now fish for the riches of men.

67. The indulgences which the preachers cry as the "greatest graces" are known to be truly such, in so far as they promote gain.

68. Yet they are in truth the very smallest graces compared with the grace of God and the piety of the Cross.

69. Bishops and curates are bound to admit the commissaries of apostolic pardons, with all reverence.

70. But still more are they bound to strain all their eyes and attend with all their ears, lest these men preach their own dreams instead of the commission of the pope.

71. He who speaks against the truth of apostolic pardons, let him be anathema and accursed!

72. But he who guards against the lust and license of the pardon-preachers, let him be blessed!

73. The pope justly thunders against those who, by any art, contrive the injury of the traffic in pardons.

74. But much more does he intend to thunder against those who use the pretext of pardons to contrive the injury of holy love and truth.

75. To think the papal pardons so great that they could absolve a man even if he had committed an impossible sin and violated the Mother of God -- this is madness.

76. We say, on the contrary, that the papal pardons are not able to remove the very least of venial sins, so far as its guilt is concerned.

77. It is said that even St. Peter, if he were now Pope, could not bestow greater graces; this is blasphemy against St. Peter and against the pope.

78. We say, on the contrary, that even the present pope, and any pope at all, has greater graces at his disposal; to wit, the Gospel, powers, gifts of healing, etc., as it is written in I. Corinthians xii.

79. To say that the cross, emblazoned with the papal arms, which is set up [by the preachers of indulgences], is of equal worth with the Cross of Christ, is blasphemy.

80. The bishops, curates and theologians who allow such talk to be spread among the people, will have an account to render.

81. This unbridled preaching of pardons makes it no easy matter, even for learned men, to rescue the reverence due to the pope from slander, or even from the shrewd questionings of the laity.

82. To wit: -- "Why does not the pope empty purgatory, for the sake of holy love and of the dire need of the souls that are there, if he redeems an infinite number of souls for the sake of miserable money with which to build a Church? The former reasons would be most just; the latter is most trivial."

83. Again: -- "Why are mortuary and anniversary masses for the dead continued, and why does he not return or permit the withdrawal of the endowments founded on their behalf, since it is wrong to pray for the redeemed?"

84. Again: -- "What is this new piety of God and the pope, that for money they allow a man who is impious and their enemy to buy out of purgatory the pious soul of a friend of God, and do not rather, because of that pious and beloved soul's own need, free it for pure love's sake?"

85. Again: -- "Why are the penitential canons long since in actual fact and through disuse abrogated and dead, now satisfied by the granting of indulgences, as though they were still alive and in force?"

86. Again: -- "Why does not the pope, whose wealth is to-day greater than the riches of the richest, build just this one church of St. Peter with his own money, rather than with the money of poor believers?"

87. Again: -- "What is it that the pope remits, and what participation does he grant to those who, by perfect contrition, have a right to full remission and participation?"

88. Again: -- "What greater blessing could come to the Church than if the pope were to do a hundred times a day what he now does once, and bestow on every believer these remissions and participations?"

89. "Since the pope, by his pardons, seeks the salvation of souls rather than money, why does he suspend the indulgences and pardons granted heretofore, since these have equal efficacy?"

90. To repress these arguments and scruples of the laity by force alone, and not to resolve them by giving reasons, is to expose the Church and the pope to the ridicule of their enemies, and to make Christians unhappy.

91. If, therefore, pardons were preached according to the spirit and mind of the pope, all these doubts would be readily resolved; nay, they would not exist.

92. Away, then, with all those prophets who say to the people of Christ, "Peace, peace," and there is no peace!

93. Blessed be all those prophets who say to the people of Christ, "Cross, cross," and there is no cross!

94. Christians are to be exhorted that they be diligent in following Christ, their Head, through penalties, deaths, and hell;

95. And thus be confident of entering into heaven rather through many tribulations, than through the assurance of peace.

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To: SoothingDave
"It's not a "weighing station," it's a car wash"

Leave it to the Catholics to stop and get the car washed when the dealer only cares about the interior...

101 posted on 11/02/2002 10:06:16 PM PST by Joshua
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To: Irisshlass
"He condoned polygamy...(Scandal of Philip of Hesse, he used lying and vulgar language that was a repulsed by his fellow Protestant Leaders...On scripture he said Job was actually a fable...Ecc was not complete and too incoherent...Solomon didn't writre his book...thought the story of Johan was monstrous and incrediable..he rejected the canon Hebrews, James, Jude and the Apocalypse..how about the Peasant Revolt of 1525...he said to mow them down, slaughter and stab them openly or in secret...and they were slaughtered 100,000 men killed"

And in your mind this makes the all prots wrong?

You should take a good look at your Popery.This long line of "Vicars" included thieves,perverts,liars,pedophiles,murderers,polygamists,and every other vile trait known to man. I think it was Formosa who had the previous Pope exhumed, dressed the corpse, set him in a chair, and tried him in a court.

As for your crocodile tears over 100,000 men being slaughtered. Who do you think Torquemada took his orders from? Is there sacred tradition going back to the Apostles that allowed these popes to murder thousands in the name of God?

The moral filth from the leaders of your church make Luther look like a piker.

"Luther a man of God? My church is wrong...you need to get out of myth and face facts.. "

Your hypocrisy is unbelievable.

102 posted on 11/02/2002 10:57:04 PM PST by Joshua
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To: RobbyS; drstevej
Luther's career after Worms was more that of the partisan leader than the prophet since his volleys were fired from behind high walls.

The Catholics hate him because he lived to begin a revolution.I am sorry you guys did not have an opportunity to burn him at the stake

103 posted on 11/03/2002 2:50:27 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7
Richard Marius, a recent Luther biographer, Harvard professor and no Catholic, said that as much as he liked and admired Martin, We have to consider the possibility that if he had suffered the fate of Hus that Europe might have been spared more than one hundred years of religious warfare.
104 posted on 11/03/2002 3:13:12 PM PST by RobbyS
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To: RobbyS
***Richard Marius, a recent Luther biographer, Harvard professor and no Catholic, said that as much as he liked and admired Martin, We have to consider the possibility that if he had suffered the fate of Hus that Europe might have been spared more than one hundred years of religious warfare. ***

Ludicrous. The operative word is "possibility." This is pure speculation. There were far more forces for reform than Luther. But you would relish the thought of Luther on a stake roasting like a bratwurst.

Luther did not initiate the Peasants Revolt under Thomas Munster for example (he encouraged the Princes to oppose it). Religious warfare didn't begin or end with the Lutheran Princes. Zwingliu donned armor and was killed in battle. No other reformer followed his lead.

Wars were a by-product of religious coercion and the fusion of state and church. HAdly inventions of Luther. Malachi Martin, no Protestant, traces the decisive shift to Constantine... not Luther.
105 posted on 11/03/2002 5:45:20 PM PST by drstevej
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To: drstevej
You underestimate Luther's gifts as a propogandist, his ability to mobilize the Germans. If Charles V had been a German, history would have taken a very different turn. Zwingli was small potatoes beside him. He was like but greater than either Wyclif or Hus. Luther had charisma to a degree unmatched by the other Reformers. I am reminded of St. Bernard of Clairvaux when I read about the influence he had over other men.
106 posted on 11/03/2002 6:42:44 PM PST by RobbyS
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To: RobbyS
***You underestimate Luther's gifts as a propogandist***

The Ninety Five theses were never intended for publication. They were written in Latin for academic disputation. They were translated and spread throughout Europe by people sympathetic to Luther, but it was hardly directed by Luther.

***If Charles V had been a German, history would have taken a very different turn. ***

Would Luther's execution have made Charles V a German? Your original point was that the burning of Luther would have spared Europe 100 years of war. Now you are saying that if Chas. V were German history would be different... If Thomas Munzer had had nuclear weapons we would be speaking German.

Luther was charismatic as a leader, but Zwingli and Calvin did not dance to his tune. Eck and Erasmus were not enamored with him. Luther's sucessor, Melancthon, lacked Luther's spine and leadership (although he was a brilliant theologian in his own right). Luther was strong among the Lutheran leaders and respected outside Germany. He was certainly no Pope.


Reform in Germany under a politic of Electors and princes was radically different than reform in the Swiss Cantons. The leadership of Calvin and Zwingli and Bullinger and Bucer was well suited to the cantons. Calvin in Germany or Luther in Geneva would have been a non-starter. God placed the right men in the right place. Men you would prefer to have been tried and fried.



107 posted on 11/03/2002 7:01:01 PM PST by drstevej
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To: drstevej
Luther's address to the German Nobility had far greater impact; only in retrospect do the 95 theses mark the beginning of the Reformation. If Charles V had been a German, he would have used Luther to establish his ascendency over the Princes. Since he was not,but a Hapsburg with his power based in Spain and Austria and a great interest in Italy, he had to defend Catholicism. If he had seized and executed Luther, he would have denied the German nobility a powerfully gifted mouthpiece. He did oppose Luther but knowing his weakness in Germany dared not move against him. Yes, Luther was perfectly suited for his part, and Germany was a far greater stage than Switzerland. With Germany politically united behind Luther, the Reformation would probably have swept all Europenorth of the Alps instead of being fragmented into competing sects.
108 posted on 11/03/2002 8:16:10 PM PST by RobbyS
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To: RnMomof7; RobbyS
"Purgatory negates the works of Christ..it is salvation by human works."

And thus totally "anathema" to scripture, THE definitive Word of God.

109 posted on 11/03/2002 9:22:59 PM PST by F16Fighter
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To: SoothingDave
"It's not a "weighing station," it's a car wash."

:-) Very good SD, but at that Catholic "car wash," no one at the Vatican itself seems to know just how many wash n' waxes it takes before that vette is clean and shiny enough to actually leave said car wash. Is it a hundred? A thousand? A million??

Christ Himself has already buffed that baby out -- and just that once was enough.

110 posted on 11/03/2002 9:30:55 PM PST by F16Fighter
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To: F16Fighter
Oh? Even cast in the following terms? Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger describes purgatory as a fiery, transforming encounter with Christ and his love:

"Purgatory is not, as Tertullian thought, some kind of supra-worldly concentration camp where one is forced to undergo punishments in a more or less arbitrary fashion. Rather it is the inwardly necessary process of transformation in which a person becomes capable of Christ, capable of God [i.e., capable of full unity with Christ and God] and thus capable of unity with the whole communion of saints. Simply to look at people with any degree of realism at all is to grasp the necessity of such a process. It does not replace grace by works, but allows the former to achieve its full victory precisely as grace. What actually saves is the full assent of faith. But in most of us, that basic option is buried under a great deal of wood, hay and straw. Only with difficulty can it peer out from behind the latticework of an egoism we are powerless to pull down with our own hands. Man is the recipient of the divine mercy, yet this does not exonerate him from the need to be transformed. Encounter with the Lord is this transformation. It is the fire that burns away our dross and re-forms us to be vessels of eternal joy."

Thus according to Ratzinger's way of explaining the doctrine, as we are drawn out of this life and into direct union with Jesus, his fiery love and holiness burns away all the dross and impurities in our souls and makes us fit for life in the glorious, overwhelming light of God's presence and holiness.

111 posted on 11/03/2002 10:23:08 PM PST by RobbyS
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To: RobbyS
Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger: "Purgatory...is the inwardly necessary process of transformation in which a person becomes capable of Christ, capable of God [i.e., capable of full unity with Christ and God] and thus capable of unity with the whole communion of saints."

With all due respect to the Cardinal's wishful thinking, there is NO biblical reference to such a spiritual "connecting-flight" to Heaven.

And can you kindly point out anywhere in the scriptures that supports the existance of "Purgatory"? Christ hadn't nor had any of the Apostles commanded such a "necessary process of transformation" for His Salvation.

Who's "authority" shall you abide by -- that of the Catholic Church and the Pope, OR the Holy Bible and Jesus Christ?

May the Lord give you His answer LOUD AND CLEAR...

112 posted on 11/03/2002 11:39:45 PM PST by F16Fighter
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To: Joshua
"It's not a "weighing station," it's a car wash"

Leave it to the Catholics to stop and get the car washed when the dealer only cares about the interior...

Leave it to a Protestant to misunderstand a simple metaphor. The point is that it is not a place of judgment ("Weighing station"), but a place of cleansing ("Car wash").

To read more into it is quite silly.

Yet, to continue in your silliness, yes, Catholics at the car wash get a complete detailing, inside and out. We consider the car's exterior to be important as well, so important that even God took on an "exterior."

SD

113 posted on 11/04/2002 6:54:21 AM PST by SoothingDave
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To: F16Fighter
"It's not a "weighing station," it's a car wash."

:-) Very good SD, but at that Catholic "car wash," no one at the Vatican itself seems to know just how many wash n' waxes it takes before that vette is clean and shiny enough to actually leave said car wash. Is it a hundred? A thousand? A million??

I don't see the point. What is sure is that anyone who goes into the carwash comes out clean. And that is a good thing. It is the denial of our own dirt that is a bad thing. Nothing unclean can stand in the presence of God. Check Isaiah.

Christ Himself has already buffed that baby out -- and just that once was enough.

When exactly did this happen? To you? Are you now perfect, without sin? Is this the best you you will ever be? Or will you have to be changed before you are clean enough to enter heaven?

SD

114 posted on 11/04/2002 7:00:01 AM PST by SoothingDave
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To: RnMomof7
If the Potter puts His clay into a kiln, to burn off the waste and to perfect the pot, is that a "work" of the clay pot?

Is that what the scripture says? Please cite the verse that says He burns off the waste to make it perfect for use..Having done ceramics I know you do not do that ..but show me the scripture

What a lame attempt to duck the question. Is a clay piece "perfect" before it is fired? Would you make soup in an unfired ceramic pot? No.

The pot needs to be fired before it is perfected for use. Now, and I invite you to answer the question, if the maker puts the clay pot into the kiln to be perfected, is that the "work" of the clay pot?

As for "Scripture" showing us being tested in fire, you know what it is. But your PIOS ignores it.

SD

115 posted on 11/04/2002 7:03:38 AM PST by SoothingDave
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To: SoothingDave; F16Fighter; RobbyS
I was washed in the blood of the Lamb.

Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, [who is] the faithful witness, [and] the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Your car wash benefits you NOTHING..

Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.


116 posted on 11/04/2002 7:05:03 AM PST by RnMomof7
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To: SoothingDave
Is that what the scripture says? Please cite the verse that says He burns off the waste to make it perfect for use..Having done ceramics I know you do not do that ..but show me the scripture
What a lame attempt to duck the question. Is a clay piece "perfect" before it is fired? Would you make soup in an unfired ceramic pot? No.

The clay IS PERFECT BEFORE it is fired..the firing does not make it perfect..

The pot needs to be fired before it is perfected for use.
Now, and I invite you to answer the question, if the maker puts the clay pot into the kiln to be perfected, is that the "work" of the clay pot?

I have answered that you just do not like the answer because it does not line up with what you want to believe

    Rom 9:20   Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus?
     Rom 9:21   Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
     Rom 9:22   [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:      Rom 9:23   And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

God used Israel to make a point to all mankind..HE is sovereign..Dave the pot does not choose it's use nor does it "fire" itself..This is an example of the election of God..it is not all about YOU

Dave what did Jesus accomplish on the cross?

117 posted on 11/04/2002 7:20:22 AM PST by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7
I was washed in the blood of the Lamb.

Past tense, Terry? Are you now clean? Will you remain this way when you go to heaven, or will you be changed?

Is this the best Terry that there ever will be?

SD

118 posted on 11/04/2002 7:33:51 AM PST by SoothingDave
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To: RnMomof7
The clay IS PERFECT BEFORE it is fired..the firing does not make it perfect..

I haven't a clue what you are saying. It is no longer necessary for clay to be fired?

Now, and I invite you to answer the question, if the maker puts the clay pot into the kiln to be perfected, is that the "work" of the clay pot?

I have answered that you just do not like the answer because it does not line up with what you want to believe

Please point out your answer, cause I sure haven't seen it.

You go on and on about how we supposedly consider Purgatory to be a work of man. So I ask how a "pot" being put in a fire by its "maker" is a work of the pot. Did you answer? I didn't see it. Please answer.

Dave the pot does not choose it's use nor does it "fire" itself

See? Where did I say that the pot fires itself? In fact I asked you, now 4 times, how a pot being fired BY ITS MAKER is the work of the pot.

It would be helpful if you actually argued against my beliefs and not against the wild caricature you have in your head.

SD

119 posted on 11/04/2002 7:38:14 AM PST by SoothingDave
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To: SoothingDave
I haven't a clue what you are saying. It is no longer necessary for clay to be fired?

I am not surprised you do not understand..

Dave the potter MAKES the clay vessel..HE makes it perfectly for HIS uses..it is fired to harden the already perfect vessel..if it was not perfect it would be thrown out

So your attempted analogy to purgatory is weak and not applicable (remember you said that it was fired to get rid of ther "imperfections?..if you want I will go find that post)

  Isa 43:2   When thou passest through the waters, I [will be] with thee; and through the rivers, they shall not overflow thee: when thou walkest through the fire, thou shalt not be burned; neither shall the flame kindle upon thee.   

  Isa 43:3   For I [am] the LORD thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour:

See? Where did I say that the pot fires itself? In fact I asked you, now 4 times, how a pot being fired BY ITS MAKER is the work of the pot.

It is a "work" of man because it is something you do to be holy..you burn a bit .."sacrifice " a bit ... God will be very lucky to have you.

Dave you steal from the work of Jesus..you can do it better than he can

120 posted on 11/04/2002 7:51:10 AM PST by RnMomof7
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