Posted on 09/30/2002 9:19:01 AM PDT by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
VENTURA, Calif. -- Pollster George Barna, known these days as the bearer of bad tidings about the state of Christianity in America, arrived in his office a few minutes late for a 10 a.m. appointment.
His hair was ruffled; his eyes puffy. Shoulders slouched. Being the George Gallup of the conservative evangelical world is a heavy burden for Barna, who often works into the early morning, deciphering numbers generated by his surveys to find church trends.
The 48-year-old author of 30 books, who describes himself as a raging introvert, is a popular national speaker. And he produces enough in-your-face statistics and blunt talk to irritate pastors, cost him business and earn a reputation for having, as one magazine put it, "the gift of discouragement."
His data undercut some of the core beliefs that should, by definition, set evangelicals apart from their more liberal brethren. Findings of his polls show, for example, that:
• The divorce rate is no different for born-again Christians than for those who do not consider themselves religious.
• Only a minority of born-again adults (44 percent) and a tiny proportion of born-again teenagers (9 percent) are certain that absolute moral truth exists.
• Most Christians' votes are influenced more by economic self-interest than by spiritual and moral values.
• Desiring to have a close, personal relationship with God ranks sixth among the 21 life goals tested among born-agains, trailing such desires as "living a comfortable lifestyle."
'Are people's lives being transformed" by Christianity? Barna has asked. "We can't find evidence of a transformation."
Even Barna's toughest critics concede that Barna Research Group's polls carry considerable weight because of his first-rate surveying techniques and his 17-year-long record of tracking church and cultural trends.
His work has been used by major companies (Ford Motor Co. and Walt Disney, for example) and religious organizations such as the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association and World Vision.
"He is the accepted authority on church trends," said Bob Cavin, director of the Texas Baptist Leadership Center. "He gives pastors insight, not only into the effectiveness of the church, but with trends in society that help the pastors with their strategic planning."
Because of his influence, many are watching with interest as Barna branches out from his usual business. He has been preoccupied with quantifying contemporary Christian beliefs, attitudes and practices; comparing them with biblical truths; and delivering the results to pastors, Christian leaders and laity. He said that he once hoped his analyses would be used as building blocks for more relevant churches.
But he decided this year to take a more active role by helping to identify and develop new and better church leaders who will boldly go where their predecessors haven't gone before: to radically revamp the church. He said he believes the process will take decades -- generations -- to complete.
"One of our challenges is to revisit the structures and means through which people experience Christ," Barna said. "People have been talking about developing the 'new church' for the past several decades, but nothing new has been forthcoming."
According to Barna, pastors are great teachers, but not necessarily adept at leadership. To back up his claim, he cited one of his own polls: It showed that only 12 percent of senior pastors say they have the spiritual gift of leadership and 8 percent say they have the gift of evangelism. In contrast, two-thirds say they have the gift of teaching or preaching.
"We, not God, have created a system that doesn't work and that we're reluctant to change."
Barna also is in the early stages of establishing a genuine and appealing Christian presence in secular entities: film, music, media and politics. He has identified these as the institutions that hold the most influence over Americans.
What's needed are "skilled professionals who love Christ and model his ways through their thoughts, words and behavior in enviable and biblically consistent ways," he said.
For Barna, the need for better leadership and better Christian role models in the secular world was underscored by a poll he released this month.
9/11 opportunity lost
The survey showed that the Sept. 11 attacks had virtually no lasting effects on America's faith, despite a 20 percent rise in church attendance during the first few weeks afterward.
"We missed a huge opportunity," he said, adding that, because of their own shallow faith, church regulars needed so much reassurance themselves that they couldn't minister to newcomers.
This kind of comment bothers evangelical Christians.
Mike Regele, author of "The Death of the Church," is one of many who believe the Barna Research Group's statistical work is excellent, but the conclusions drawn by the company's founder are too harsh.
The hypocrisy of Christians, Regele said, "has been a part of the church, probably since the day of Pentecost" and doesn't indicate its collapse.
"It sounds like he's very, very angry at the church," said Regele, a church critic himself who is ultimately an optimist. "There are reasons to be disappointed, but scripture never said we'd be perfect. We shouldn't view the whole institution as a failure."
With each new Barna poll or book, the attacks begin again: He's too negative; he has it in for pastors; he's arrogant.
The criticism "would affect any human being," said Barna, a husband and father of two. "We all want to be loved and accepted by others, but we also have a higher calling to which we each must be true."
Barna said he has learned painfully that giving advice on how to revitalize churches in America is a hugely complex proposition that doesn't fit well into sound bites. He has learned to be more guarded.
Although his statistics often show self-described Christians living lives no different from those of atheists, Barna's faith never has wavered.
"The issue isn't whether Jesus or Christianity is real," he said. "The issue is, are Americans willing to put Christ first in their lives?
By contrast, if someone told me that he was a Christian and certainly understood the NT better than I, and I ask him well what's so special about the tribe of Judah and the lion associated with it, and I got only a blank stare, I would certainly wonder about the depth and interest he has for his religion, now wouldn't I?
Yes the minister had this 10 page typed copy, which was given on the "Great and Dreadful Day" and "The Wrath of the Lord,” and we spoke a lot on predestination. The name was the Covenant Presbyterian Church.
Like I said I was a mainline mutt, meaning I visited many Christian Churches, before I joined the Presbyterian Church. I was looking at that time for the most respected church.
No one in those days talked about conversion, for if you believe in Jesus that was a given. One choose a religion that suit your belief.
Oh my, ...That was dad???????? I didn't recognize him in that condition, I thought he was a homeless person trying to break into my house.
Let me know the next time you kick him out of your barn and he hitches to Florida, and we'll feed him this next time.
(^g^) JH
For now that is mission impossible!
Be of Good Cheer!
Sharon
***
Thank you for explaining you reply on the Torch.
When I mention others also have multi names, I was not condoning the act, only showing it was a common practice. I choose not to continue this practices, for it gives the wrong impression.
Be of good cheer,
Sharon
I wasn’t trying to say that Calvinism was “inconsistent with the preaching of the Gospel.” What I was trying to point out was that just like jude24 was making a comment about Arminianism, an Arminiast(?) could make the same claim about Calvinism, if you get my meaning.
The problem here is that you know that there are inconsistent Arminians that preach the gospel as if God is sovereign over salvation, even praying that God would move upon them, but you can't find any Calvinists who have any confidence in man's "free-will".
I suppose so. This I do know, if there are human beings involved you will have inconsistency and hypocrisy, count on it.
Thank God for such Arminians. Are you one of these?
Hoo boy, here goes.
Like I said, I fall in between the Calvinist and Arminiast camps. I believe both are true. ‘But how can that be’ you ask. Well, I will tell you.
God has three basic attributes(I’m sure you can come up with more, but I am focusing on these three). His first attribute is His Omnipotence. God is all-powerful. There is nothing God cannot do.
Secondly, God is Omniscient. He knows everything. There is nothing God does not know.
Thirdly, God is Omnitemporal. God is everywhere at the same time, and He is also everywhen at the same time. God is. To speak of God “looking into the future” or “remembering the past” is absurd if you think about it. There is no future or past with God. There is only the constant “now.”
Ecc. 3:15 illustrates this attribute of God by saying, “That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been; and God requireth that which is past.”
Let’s take that attribute of God and see how predestination and free-will interact. I was saved on November 11, 1992. On November 10, 1992 I was a hell-bound sinner like the majority of humanity. However something happened to change that, I came to believe in Jesus Christ as my Saviour. From my perspective there had been a change in my position. The change was from a hell-bound sinner to a Heaven-bound Saint.
Let’s move on to God’s perspective. He decides to create the Universe. He counts the cost. God does not start a Creation and wait to see how it turns out. God is present at every event of the Creation at the same “time”(if we can still use that term when speaking about God). The Bible tells us that God does not change. When God created the Universe He knows my decision, He knows I am His. From the Eternal, I have always been His. There has not been a change in my status, indeed there cannot be a change in my status before God because if there were than that would cause Him to change and we know He does not change.
To God my decision is irrelevant because I am His, from the beginning of Time on into Eternity. Since I am His, He has predestinated me to become conformed into the image of His Son, Jesus Christ, and so on and so forth.
To me my decision is everything. Without my belief in Jesus Christ as payment for my sins I am destined for Hell, and rightly so.
Well this post has gone on long enough. If you would like me to clarify something, just ask. I’ll be happy to try. ;^)
Not at all. His choice was made before the foundation of the world.
Point well taken.
Only after God did a work on his will (and heart by implication). Just as hed had done to Abraam... Otherwise, how do you explain Ps 14:3, Ps 53:3, Rom 3:10-12? None seek for God unless God first seeks him!
I have multiple love handles - does that count?
Ok, then on what basis did God choose who would be Elect and who would not be Elect?
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