Pollster says he can't find Christianity transforming lives

VENTURA, Calif. -- Pollster George Barna, known these days as the bearer of bad tidings about the state of Christianity in America, arrived in his office a few minutes late for a 10 a.m. appointment.

His hair was ruffled; his eyes puffy. Shoulders slouched. Being the George Gallup of the conservative evangelical world is a heavy burden for Barna, who often works into the early morning, deciphering numbers generated by his surveys to find church trends.

The 48-year-old author of 30 books, who describes himself as a raging introvert, is a popular national speaker. And he produces enough in-your-face statistics and blunt talk to irritate pastors, cost him business and earn a reputation for having, as one magazine put it, "the gift of discouragement."

His data undercut some of the core beliefs that should, by definition, set evangelicals apart from their more liberal brethren. Findings of his polls show, for example, that:

• The divorce rate is no different for born-again Christians than for those who do not consider themselves religious.

• Only a minority of born-again adults (44 percent) and a tiny proportion of born-again teenagers (9 percent) are certain that absolute moral truth exists.

• Most Christians' votes are influenced more by economic self-interest than by spiritual and moral values.

• Desiring to have a close, personal relationship with God ranks sixth among the 21 life goals tested among born-agains, trailing such desires as "living a comfortable lifestyle."

'Are people's lives being transformed" by Christianity? Barna has asked. "We can't find evidence of a transformation."

Even Barna's toughest critics concede that Barna Research Group's polls carry considerable weight because of his first-rate surveying techniques and his 17-year-long record of tracking church and cultural trends.

His work has been used by major companies (Ford Motor Co. and Walt Disney, for example) and religious organizations such as the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association and World Vision.

"He is the accepted authority on church trends," said Bob Cavin, director of the Texas Baptist Leadership Center. "He gives pastors insight, not only into the effectiveness of the church, but with trends in society that help the pastors with their strategic planning."

Because of his influence, many are watching with interest as Barna branches out from his usual business. He has been preoccupied with quantifying contemporary Christian beliefs, attitudes and practices; comparing them with biblical truths; and delivering the results to pastors, Christian leaders and laity. He said that he once hoped his analyses would be used as building blocks for more relevant churches.

But he decided this year to take a more active role by helping to identify and develop new and better church leaders who will boldly go where their predecessors haven't gone before: to radically revamp the church. He said he believes the process will take decades -- generations -- to complete.

"One of our challenges is to revisit the structures and means through which people experience Christ," Barna said. "People have been talking about developing the 'new church' for the past several decades, but nothing new has been forthcoming."

According to Barna, pastors are great teachers, but not necessarily adept at leadership. To back up his claim, he cited one of his own polls: It showed that only 12 percent of senior pastors say they have the spiritual gift of leadership and 8 percent say they have the gift of evangelism. In contrast, two-thirds say they have the gift of teaching or preaching.

"We, not God, have created a system that doesn't work and that we're reluctant to change."

Barna also is in the early stages of establishing a genuine and appealing Christian presence in secular entities: film, music, media and politics. He has identified these as the institutions that hold the most influence over Americans.

What's needed are "skilled professionals who love Christ and model his ways through their thoughts, words and behavior in enviable and biblically consistent ways," he said.

For Barna, the need for better leadership and better Christian role models in the secular world was underscored by a poll he released this month.

The survey showed that the Sept. 11 attacks had virtually no lasting effects on America's faith, despite a 20 percent rise in church attendance during the first few weeks afterward.

"We missed a huge opportunity," he said, adding that, because of their own shallow faith, church regulars needed so much reassurance themselves that they couldn't minister to newcomers.

Mike Regele, author of "The Death of the Church," is one of many who believe the Barna Research Group's statistical work is excellent, but the conclusions drawn by the company's founder are too harsh.

The hypocrisy of Christians, Regele said, "has been a part of the church, probably since the day of Pentecost" and doesn't indicate its collapse.

"It sounds like he's very, very angry at the church," said Regele, a church critic himself who is ultimately an optimist. "There are reasons to be disappointed, but scripture never said we'd be perfect. We shouldn't view the whole institution as a failure."

With each new Barna poll or book, the attacks begin again: He's too negative; he has it in for pastors; he's arrogant.

The criticism "would affect any human being," said Barna, a husband and father of two. "We all want to be loved and accepted by others, but we also have a higher calling to which we each must be true."

Barna said he has learned painfully that giving advice on how to revitalize churches in America is a hugely complex proposition that doesn't fit well into sound bites. He has learned to be more guarded.

Although his statistics often show self-described Christians living lives no different from those of atheists, Barna's faith never has wavered.

"The issue isn't whether Jesus or Christianity is real," he said. "The issue is, are Americans willing to put Christ first in their lives?

More or less. But one is based upon God not forgiving someone for being ignorant through no fault of their own. And the other is based on the idea of a merciful God who does not condemn people for things that are not their fault.

One is based on the idea of a merciful God who will provide the message of Jesus by means of a missionary. The other is based on the idea of a merciful God who will not condemn people for what is not their fault.

It is possible to list supporting data for each assumption.

The 2 Assumptions:
1. Send Missionary with message of Christ.
2. Immediate forgivenss without message of Christ.

1. Send Missionary -
a. Acts 16:6 Paul and his companions traveled throughout the region of Phrygia and Galatia, having been kept by the Holy Spirit from preaching the word in the province of Asia. 7When they came to the border of Mysia, they tried to enter Bithynia, but the Spirit of Jesus would not allow them to. 8So they passed by Mysia and went down to Troas. 9During the night Paul had a vision of a man of Macedonia standing and begging him, "Come over to Macedonia and help us." 10After Paul had seen the vision, we got ready at once to leave for Macedonia, concluding that God had called us to preach the gospel to them.

b. 12Now when I went to Troas to preach the gospel of Christ and found that the Lord had opened a door for me,

c. John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

As you can see, a list of evidence (preliminary) does support the first assumption.

Can you come up with evidence for the 2nd assumption?

The 2 Assumptions:
1. Send Missionary with message of Christ.
2. Immediate forgivenss without message of Christ.

You have stated #2 too strongly. I am not saying that everyone is forgiven immediately without hearing of Christ. But rather, that the possibilty exists for one who truly uses his best light to search for God and follow the law on his heart. This is extremely difficult to acheive without knowing of Christ, but I do not think it impossible.

Again, I am not arguing that we should not evangelize or that God does not desire so. I yield this point easily.

b. 12Now when I went to Troas to preach the gospel of Christ and found that the Lord had opened a door for me,

And? A door was opened. So what? How does this make your argument?

c. John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Is the only way Christ comes to people through evangelising done by other Christians? Or could Jesus operate on someone outside of this? Even if they knew not the name?

As you can see, a list of evidence (preliminary) does support the first assumption. Can you come up with evidence for the 2nd assumption?

The only evidence available for my notion is the idea, rejected by all fine Calvinists, that God is merciful and just, not capricious and arbitrary.

I am convinced now that this deception is part of the LDS training.

"Surely Wrig, you CANNOT mean this!?" : Elsie

THE DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS

SECTION 71

Revelation given to Joseph Smith the Prophet and Sidney Rigdon, at Hiram, Ohio, December 1, 1831. HC 1: 238--239. The Prophet had continued to translate the Bible with Sidney Rigdon as his scribe until this revelation was received, at which time it was temporarily laid aside so as to enable them to fulfill the instruction given herein. The brethren were to go forth to preach in order to allay the unfriendly feelings that had developed against the Church as a result of the publication of some newspaper articles by Ezra Booth, who had apostatized.

1--4, Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon are sent forth to proclaim the gospel; 5--11, Enemies of the saints shall be confounded.

1 BEHOLD, thus saith the Lord unto you my servants Joseph Smith, Jun., and Sidney Rigdon, that the time has verily come that it is necessary and expedient in me that you should open your mouths in proclaiming my gospel, the things of the kingdom, expounding the mysteries thereof out of the scriptures, according to that portion of Spirit and power which shall be given unto you, even as I will.
2 Verily I say unto you, proclaim unto the world in the regions round about, and in the church also, for the space of a season, even until it shall be made known unto you.
3 Verily this is a mission for a season, which I give unto you.
4 Wherefore, labor ye in my vineyard. Call upon the inhabitants of the earth, and bear record, and prepare the way for the commandments and revelations which are to come.

5 Now, behold this is wisdom; whoso readeth, let him understand and receive also;

6 For unto him that receiveth it shall be given more abundantly, even power.
7 Wherefore, confound your enemies; call upon them to meet you both in public and in private; and inasmuch as ye are faithful their shame shall be made manifest.
8 Wherefore, let them bring forth their strong reasons against the Lord.
9 Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you --there is no weapon that is formed against you shall prosper;
10 And if any man lift his voice against you he shall be confounded in mine own due time.
11 Wherefore, keep my commandments; they are true and faithful. Even so. Amen.

"You are mean and hateful!" : YouKnowWho

D&C 18: 20

Contend against no church, save it be the church of the devil.

(Now you know where we stand!!)

D&C 24: 15

And in whatsoever place ye shall enter, and they receive you not in my name, ye shall leave a cursing instead of a blessing, by casting off the dust of your feet against them as a testimony, and cleansing your feet by the wayside.

(This looks like IRE to me!)

You are mistaken. I am not a calvinist.

Here is the evidence for your assumption.

2. Immediate forgiveness without message of Christ.

a. Romans 2: 11 For God does not show favoritism. 12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

b. 2 Peter 3: 9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance

c. 1 John 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

The above is evidence that you can use, IMHO. Why did you think I am a calvinist?

Your #750: this deception is part of the LDS training. ... I believe the LDS are conditioned to misrepresent what they believe ... Do you condone the behavior?

Wrong, wrong, and no. You have no basis to make such sweeping generalizations, yet you seem eager to make them. If you can't show it from the LDS Scriptures, don't pretend it is what we believe.

As the Holy Spirit bears witness, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is the Lord's Restored Church, built on the foundation of apostles and prophets, with Jesus Christ as the chief cornerstone.

I do not know Sharon personally. I do work with her, trying to persuade her not to descend to your level (you plural). I try to persuade her not to let you guys draw the worst out of her so you can attack her all the more. I try to persuade her to stick to the Scriptures. I will continue to do so.

I have been trying to persuade you guys in the same direction for a much longer time, but you have hardened your hearts and you refuse. You would rather attack and condemn and make endless demands for this or that apology. This is what the unregenerate do. When you are converted, you will strengthen the brethren, and the sisters, and not try to weaken them.

I do believe that if you guys treated her the way you should, you would not have the problems you have with her. She is a different person when people are kind to her.

So you guys are getting what you are asking for, the behavior you are trying so hard to get!

Try it out! Talk about uplifting things. Talk about things that bring peace to the soul, that bring the Holy Spirit near. Talk about honesty, fidelity, diligence, service, trustworthiness, gratitude, brotherly kindness, charity. Post your favorite Scripture verses and hymns, and tell us why they are your favorites. Exhort Sharon, and all others, to better behavior, living a higher standard.

You have done it before.

Do it consistently, so Sharon won't be thinking the attacks may resume in the next post. See if Sharon is not a different person once she feels able to trust you guys.

I continue to like the 1st assumption better. Why?

1. God sent Christ to SAVE sinners. (Rescue them.)
2. Those who believe in Christ pass immediately from death to life. (They get rescued.)
3. His name is the only name under which RESCUE will happen...."no other name...whereby we must be SAVED (Rescued.)
4. A rescue is definite whereas responding to the law in the heart involves life-long obedience. I'd far rather be rescued (saved.)

Therefore, I'd think God would get a rescue ship to the aborigine in deepest out-back land.

He's already shown that he's able and willing to do that.

Abimelech spoke with God and pled his case with God, this from a man who was 'spiritually dead'. He did not have to be regenerated first, in order to understand what God was saying.

That is a pathetic twisting of scripture guys and you know it. The "dead " comment was a reference to physical death not spiritual death..

A surprise that God chose to directly speak to him...no God was acting to protect his elect..after all God once talked through a donkey. He is God and can use His creation as He wishes..

There is no indication that he became an observant Jew from that encounter...

Nice try

We can only believe that if some pagan in outback aborigine land responds to the law of God in his heart, that God will make sure that a missionary is somehow taken to that area so that the message of Christ can be proclaimed to him/her.
Or, we can believe that if some pagan in outback aborigine land responds to the law of God in his heart, that God will forgive ignorance of Christ when it is not the fault of the aborigine.

If God intend for the pagan to hear the gospel he will..I have a God that can do anything do you?

Dave you need to read Romans 1,2 and 3...that will answer your question...NO one can keep the law of the Jews or the knowlege of God in his heart perfectly (the only way you could get into heaven) That is why God sent a Savior that COULD keep the law of the Jews and the laws of the conscience PERFECTLY .. He could then stand in our place and take our just punishment for us

No Dave there are no "second changes"

Elsie, I would not compare the Lord rightious anger, with man ire.

For many reason -
1- the Lord is all knowing.
2- Vengeance belongs to the Lord.
3- For man to engage in this is disobedience.

My concept of ire was pride and enmity. It you are to receive the Love of the Lord you can not have rancor dwelling in you at the same time.

THE EPISTLE OF PAUL THE APOSTLE TO THE
ROMANS

CHAPTER 8
Law of Christ brings life and peace—Those adopted as sons of God become joint-heirs with Christ—God’s elect are foreordained to eternal life—Christ makes intercession for man.

1 THERE is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

I still have IFW for some reason it restornu that is closed and when I asked.

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