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Pollster says he can't find Christianity transforming lives
Los Angeles Times | Published Sep 28, 2002 | William Lobdell

Posted on 09/30/2002 9:19:01 AM PDT by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain

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To: RnMomof7
***Ahhhhh kind of an autobiography with a ghost writer huh?***

More like a guestbook at a wedding. If they decide to come they sign in to let God know they are honoring Him with their presence.
581 posted on 10/02/2002 7:04:04 AM PDT by drstevej
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To: RnMomof7; angelo
4. What if you BELIEVE you are saved, but you aren't in "The Book" because God didn't "choose" you? Are you saved or not?

If God did not chose me I could pray 100 sinners prayer...go to communion every day...I could give all I own to the poor..and I would still be lost.

And you know this isn't the case because? (That is, that you aren't fooling yourself)

(but I would not WANT to cj..no man seeks after God..read Romans).

So the "proof" of being saved is the fact that you seek after God?

What about the person above who goes to Church and says the sinners prayer, etc. These are evidence of seeking after God, no? Then they must all be saved.

Angelo has been erneastly seeking after God for many years. So he must be saved, right?

It's no wonder you guys have to mock the experiences of other cultures. Because their attempts to seek after God, even though they have not received Revelation, is evidence that they are all saved. Hooray!

SD

582 posted on 10/02/2002 7:06:31 AM PDT by SoothingDave
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To: Elsie
  Say!  Do you have a nice, condensed, easy to understand formula for the Calvinist postion?

GRACE


583 posted on 10/02/2002 7:08:35 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: Elsie
LOL..
584 posted on 10/02/2002 7:09:10 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: jude24
So when Christians come up with their philosophy, free will, that asserts that **we**, not Almighty God, have the final say in our salvation, it blows my mind. They can't live consistently with that belief -- otherwise, evangelism is an impossibly fearful task. You live forever in fear that -- what if I mess up? What if I drive a soul away into hell? When I was an Arminian, that fear almost paralyzed me.

A very candid confession. And it has been ratified by many other Calvinists here. Interesting.

It is really so much easier to live with yourself when you are assured that whatever you do, it is what God preordained. The fear of failure, the fear of any consequence of your choices is alleviated. It is a quite comforting theology, and it is no wonder you win so many over to it.

SD

585 posted on 10/02/2002 7:09:51 AM PDT by SoothingDave
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To: Elsie
You're waivering! ;^)

*grin*

586 posted on 10/02/2002 7:10:45 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: CCWoody
(aside to Mom) Which day will he be raised up? I just couldn't help myself!

ummmmmmm I will ponder that :>)
587 posted on 10/02/2002 7:12:39 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: ponyespresso
Exactly. Everybody on Earth is given two lights of knowledge, the light of creation (Romans 1:21) and the light of conscience.(Romans 2:14, 15). If we were not given those two lights then I would agree on RnMomof7's usage of that particular passage in the sense that she is using it. But, in fact, all of humanity is given those lights; my point is that most who are given light either misunderstand it or corrupt it (even many Christians, if I can steer this back to the original article about Barna's research.)

Again right on target. But also right into the blind spot of the Calvinists. Of most "Bible only" Christians, in fact.

When the written Word of God is held as the only valid means of God interfacing with us, it is only natural (get it?) that the tale God tells in Creation is not understood. Cultures who do not have direct revelation like we have, can only see by the lights they were given.

And yes, they do have some light!

SD

588 posted on 10/02/2002 7:13:49 AM PDT by SoothingDave
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To: RnMomof7
Arminian Book of Life?


589 posted on 10/02/2002 7:15:58 AM PDT by drstevej
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To: SoothingDave
  And yes, they do have some light!

So what does the word of God say about the "light" they have?

  Jhn 1:4   In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

     Jhn 1:5   And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.   

Jhn 3:19   And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

590 posted on 10/02/2002 7:22:41 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: drstevej
LOL...but it should have a pencil with an eraser on it...
591 posted on 10/02/2002 7:23:42 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: CCWoody
What it is saying is that if you cannot keep the whole Law, you cannot keep any of the Law.

But that is not true on its face. In my example, the man who steals is guilty of theft, not adultery. He has not kept the law against stealing, but he has kept the law against adultery. Would it be just to punish him for violating all of the Law if he only violated one of them?

I'm assuming that you do believe that He is a Being of infinite worth. Therefore, the crime against Him is one of infinite magnitude. Thus, it is a sin deserving an infinite punishment. Simple logic.

Simply illogical. We are finite, and thus are incapable of infinite action. The magnitude of the crime is based upon what we do, not to whom we do it. Murder is murder. It is not a more serious crime to murder a wealthy and powerful person than it is to murder a drug-addicted prostitute. The identity of the victim is irrelevent to the magnitude of the crime.

God is just. It would be unjust to punish infinitely for finite sin. Would you punish your child for all eternity for stealing a $10 bill out of your wallet? Would the punishment be proportional to the crime? Would it be just?

592 posted on 10/02/2002 7:28:01 AM PDT by malakhi
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To: Elsie
Christianity is an acceptable form of monotheism for gentiles.

Gee..... Thanks!!!

You're welcome. Although this phraseology may sound condescending, it is worth pointing out that it is more than what many Christians will concede to Judaism. To them, we are all going to burn in hell for eternity.

593 posted on 10/02/2002 7:34:21 AM PDT by malakhi
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To: angelo; JesseShurun; OrthodoxPresbyterian; the_doc; Jerry_M
BTW, I haven't seen you answer my question as to how exactly Jesus is of the line of David. If I missed it, can you point me to the post?

I assume that you are looking for something more than the Matthew & Luke genealogies and the scripture that I cited from Acts 2 which says that Jesus is the fruit of David's body according to the flesh. If so, then your question may be beyond me.

I will make an effor to come up with something and I trust that you will begin to outline your Jewish understanding of the Messianic prophecies for my curiosity.
594 posted on 10/02/2002 7:40:36 AM PDT by CCWoody
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To: RnMomof7
Tell me Elsie did God do anything or did you do the whole thing yourself?
 

NIV Matthew 21:23-27
23.  Jesus entered the temple courts, and, while he was teaching, the chief priests and the elders of the people came to him. "By what authority are you doing these things?" they asked. "And who gave you this authority?"
 24.  Jesus replied, "I will also ask you one question. If you answer me, I will tell you by what authority I am doing these things.
 25.  John's baptism--where did it come from? Was it from heaven, or from men?"   They discussed it among themselves and said, "If we say, `From heaven,' he will ask, `Then why didn't you believe him?'
 26.  But if we say, `From men'--we are afraid of the people, for they all hold that John was a prophet."
 27.  So they answered Jesus, "We don't know."   Then he said, "Neither will I tell you by what authority I am doing these things.
Tell me Mom, did God do EVERYthing or did you do SOMEthing yourself?

595 posted on 10/02/2002 7:41:01 AM PDT by Elsie
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To: angelo
Simply illogical. We are finite, and thus are incapable of infinite action. The magnitude of the crime is based upon what we do, not to whom we do it. Murder is murder. It is not a more serious crime to murder a wealthy and powerful person than it is to murder a drug-addicted prostitute. The identity of the victim is irrelevent to the magnitude of the crime.

The infinity of the crime is not that it is against an infinite being, but rather that our actions continue on indefinitely. Yes, a muerder is a murder, to civil society.

But consider a greater viewpoint. Perhaps the murder prevented the person being killed from some great acheivement. Or the dead's would-be progeny may have acheived something that is now lost to us. Think of the idea of parallel universes. Every choice takes us on a path that diverges from another "possible future."

Once you've put the milk on your coffee, there's no way of getting the milk back out. Things have changed in an irreversible way. A different reality is now in existence.

SD

596 posted on 10/02/2002 7:41:32 AM PDT by SoothingDave
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To: RnMomof7

GRACE

HMmmmmmmm...........

I could have SWORN it was

FATE!


597 posted on 10/02/2002 7:43:17 AM PDT by Elsie
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To: CCWoody; angelo
I assume that you are looking for something more than the Matthew & Luke genealogies and the scripture that I cited from Acts 2 which says that Jesus is the fruit of David's body according to the flesh. If so, then your question may be beyond me.

If I may, the point angelo is making is that the lineage from David passes down through Joseph. But that Joseph is not, biologically, Jesus' father.

SD

598 posted on 10/02/2002 7:43:23 AM PDT by SoothingDave
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To: xzins
The law of God is different. If I commit theft, then I am guilty of all....that is I am a LAWBREAKER.

This is contradicted by scripture. The Torah indicates particular punishments for particular violations of the Law.

But, then again, it could just a "religious" protocol that I'm going through, and it shows no remorse whatever. It just shows that I can go through the motions.

If there was no repentance, then there was no atonement.

599 posted on 10/02/2002 7:44:20 AM PDT by malakhi
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To: Elsie
Sorry Mom....... but THIS time I am agreeing with a MORMON!!!

[sound of body of CubicleGuy hitting the floor as he faints dead away]

600 posted on 10/02/2002 7:44:51 AM PDT by CubicleGuy
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