Pollster says he can't find Christianity transforming lives

Los Angeles Times | Published Sep 28, 2002 | William Lobdell

[RnMomof7]

Psst, hey Becky. Tell Mom she's talking like God is bound by the time He created. ;-)

That Book of life was written BEFORE time..before the foundation of the earth...

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Cite the relavent Hebrews passages for me!

You're going to be sorry you asked him that.

BigMack

[malakhi]

And if you be unwilling to serve the LORD, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." (Joshua 24:15)

I find it interesting that Joshua has already declared that these people are unwilling to serve the LORD.

It is interesting that you would assume that this is what Joshua meant. Reread what it says. Joshua is not declaring that they are unwilling to serve God. Rather, he says that IF they are unwilling to serve the Lord, THEN choose among the pagan gods.

Your quotation really does nothing to help an unScriptural "free will" position.

The important part is what comes after what you commented upon:

but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD

Joshua chooses to serve the Lord. How do you propose that he was able to do this?

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

I guess that calling me stupid was not a flame!

No just a fact.

BigMack

[SoothingDave]

Well, it is a mystery for Christians, and I'm trying to understand the differences between the two camps. From my perspective its not even an issue.

As you've already nearly surmised, it speaks to whether man is truly a free agent or not. Which speaks to philosophies of how exactly, or how much, input man has in his salvation.

Obviously, a person who believes that God is determining everything can feel only grateful for having been "saved" (or so they think). Where a person who recognizes in the act of Creation a delegating of power and authority to man to make his own outcome, would be more inclined to realize that our actions help to determine our fate.

There's a lot more, as well, but that's the basics. Calvinism and "Faith only" go together because they must.

SD

[xzins]

I bellieve you have said in the past that man is so depraved that he does not have the ability to choose faith in Christ. I believe I've understood you to say that one could offer Christ to them but they would never be able to choose him. Did I misunderstand?

[CubicleGuy]

I don't think Steve wants the LDS to read this thread.

I think the study is perfectly in keeping with the ideas that "strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it" and that "Many will say to [Jesus] in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will [He] profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

And the general bickering over Christian doctrine that goes on here day in and day out is certainly evidence of that possibility. Christ prayed that His disciples would be unified:

That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

The unity on this thread seems to be somewhat lacking, all because of the mistaken concept of what predestination is.

It's not our choices that are predestined; what is predestined is the Plan of Salvation, whereby a Savior would be provided to save those who desire to be saved. As Nephi puts it, "the way is prepared for all men from the foundation of the world". When we play a game of Sorry! or Monopoly, the rules are established ahead of time, and the interplay of those rules with the choices made by the players will determine the outcome of the game. There will be a winner, but that is determined by the choices made by all of the players during the course of the game. In real life, God has designed it so that everyone can win, provided they make correct choices. Nobody is prevented by God from winning; everyone wins or loses depending on the choices they make. The choices are not predetermined, but the rules under which everyone "plays" are.

[RnMomof7]

You heard but you rejected why? Obviously hearing is not the answer right?

How do you know one thief heard and not the other one?


Look at this people would rather be tortured than call Jesus Lord

 
  Rev 16:8   And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
  
  Rev 16:9   And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
  
  Rev 16:10   And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
  
  Rev 16:11   And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

[SoothingDave]

No, He bought them, though they are damned and on their way to Hell, because they made their own choice to reject Him.

Then what does their being "bought" signify? Of what value is it?

SD

[SoothingDave]

Indeed. Notice the way the question is formed. "Why didn't God do more?" It's always God's fault.

Are you saying that He does not wish all to be saved?

I don't see how that follows. What I said is that the way you ask the question reveals that you believe God could have done more. That each person who is not saved, is not saved because God did not do more.

SD

[RnMomof7]

No, He bought them, though they are damned and on their way to Hell, because they made their own choice to reject Him.

Mack every one of us deserve Hell..everyone..can you thank God that he decided to save some He should have and could have sent to hell..

Can you glorify God that when Jesus hung on that cross YOUR face was before him and He bore your sins and transgressions for you?

Mack you did not save yourself

[SoothingDave]

Look at this people would rather be tortured than call Jesus Lord

Rev 16:8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
Rev 16:9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

Yep. That didn't work too well during the Spanish Inquisition either.

(Uh oh.)

SD

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

1 Tim. 2:3-4 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Becky

[RnMomof7]

Of course God's will is stronger. However, God chooses to withdraw and restrain His will so that we can freely use our own will. If you can believe that God voluntarily emptied himself and took the form of a slave, then it shouldn't be a stretch for you to conceive of God giving us room to exercise our will.

Where does it say that God withdrew His control of His creation and ceeded it to man? Could I have the chapter and verse?

[SoothingDave]

Where does it say that God withdrew His control of His creation and ceeded it to man? Could I have the chapter and verse?

Did God tell you to write that?

SD

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Then what does their being "bought" signify? Of what value is it?

It means that He paid the price of all sin, for ALL, the lost and the saved, its our choice "free will" to accept it or not. Just because some don't accept it doesn't mean that He didn't pay the price for them. He "bought" us all, and gave us free will to accept it or reject it.

I give you this gift Dave, you can accept it or turn it down, that is your choice, if you turn it down, it doesn't mean I didn't offer it to ya does it?

Oh yeah, angelo already laid claim to my Harley, you will have to take the GoldWing, after the rapture. :)

BigMack

[xzins]

The Apostle Paul himself says so in Romans 4:5 However, to the man who does not work but trusts (KJV= Believes) God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. Paul specifically says here that believing is different than working.

[RnMomof7]

I don't see how that follows. What I said is that the way you ask the question reveals that you believe God could have done more. That each person who is not saved, is not saved because God did not do more.

No Dave I believe God did more than he had too..He set aside a rhemnant for himself when we all belong in hell

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Mack you did not save yourself

No, God called me, and I accepted Him in my heart, God called the man on the cross too, but he turned him down. Its called freewill Mom.

BigMack

[RnMomof7]

I ask you again then Becky Is Gods arrm too weak to save?

If it is His desire to save everyone why is not everyone saved then? Why did he not choose a universal atonment?

BTW most of the Arminians have given up the ALL argument as it makes you Univeralists..they do not argue that anymore

Here is why

3956 pas {pas}

including all the forms of declension; TDNT - 5:886,795; adj

AV - all 748, all things 170, every 117, all men 41, whosoever 31,
everyone 28, whole 12, all manner of 11, every man 11,
no + 3756 9, every thing 7, any 7, whatsoever 6,
whosoever + 3739 + 302 3, always + 1223 3, daily + 2250 2,
any thing 2, no + 3361 2, not tr 7, misc 26; 1243

1) individually
1a) each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things,
everything
2) collectively
2a) some of all types
++++
... "the whole world has gone after him" Did all the world go after
Christ? "then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan."
Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem, baptized in Jordan? "Ye are of God,
little children", and the whole world lieth in the wicked one". Does
the whole world there mean everybody? The words "world" and "all" are
used in some seven or eight senses in Scripture, and it is very
rarely the "all" means all persons, taken individually. The words are
generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts
-- some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has not
restricted His redemption to either Jew or Gentile ...

C.H. Spurgeon from a sermon on Particular Redemption