Pollster says he can't find Christianity transforming lives

Los Angeles Times | Published Sep 28, 2002 | William Lobdell

[RnMomof7]

For those of you scoring at home, that's a big "no." Calvinists don't believe in a free will. They believe in, first, a depraved will, then in a slave will.

Man has a free will..he may do what he wills at all times..the question at hand is why do some will to follow Christ and some not??

Do you believe in original sin?

[RnMomof7]

I answered very straightforward. Everyone who believes that Jesus' sacrafice on the cross paid the price for their sins is saved. Jesus Christ saved me because I believe and trust in what He says.

So then Christ really died for no one and everyone at the same time. Where does it say in scripture that he only predestined those that believed?.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Do you also believe that God has intentionally blinded some people..especially the jews ??

What does your systematic theology say about the unbelieving gentile's?

BigMack

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Rom. 8:29

John 6:28 and 29 What shall we do that we might work the work of God. Jesus answered and said unto them, this is the work of God believe on Him who he has sent.

We were given a choice to accept or reject.

Becky

[RnMomof7]

Why did the one thief believe and the other not mack..He was hanging on a cross..he knew he was going to die and to be judged..but he did not even hedge his bet...

Why? Where did his faith come from?

[xzins]

Where does it say in scripture that he only predestined those that believed?.

Romans "those he foreknew he predestined." (Ro 8:29)

He foreknew your choice, Rn, and then he predestined you to BE CONFORMED to the image of his Son.

He called you, he then justified you, and justification happens only for those who already believe.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

:)

Becky

[CCWoody]

IF God wanted too, do you think He could have given us freewill to choose? Do you think that if He gave everyone free choice He could have foreknew who would accept and who would reject, then use that knowledge to forward His plans? Would that be possible for a sovereign God?

God did give everyone a free choice. We all chose unwisely.

• The Lord looks down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there are any who understand, who seek God. They have all turned aside, they have together become corrupt; there is none who does good, no not one.

Nevertheless, for the sake of His name and His glory, He has acted for our benefit and chosen to redeem for Himself a number known only to Him from every nation and tribe and tongue and people.

Were God to leave a man to wallow in his God hating sin and hostility, He would only be giving that man what he truly desires in the insanity of his heart. Therefore, to those who never see the glorious beauty and regenerating presence of the Grace Giver, they have no right to complain. They want nothing to do with the Lord.

The problem that you and xzins and all who truly don't believe that man is dead in sins have is to be able to explain how from a heart abundant in insanity toward the Lord that man can produce the faith which is accounted for righteousness and how such generated faith is by grace and not by man:

• Ecc 9:3 Truly the hearts of the sons of men are full of evil; madness in in their hearts while they live and after that they go to the dead.
• Mat 12:34 How can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good things and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things.

Of course, I believe as the Lord has said that you must make the tree good and then the fruit will be good.

[RnMomof7]

So....God was just teasing the Israelites? Toying with them? Demanding that they choose good when He knew they had not the capacity to do so?

John 3:27 - "John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven."

You have not told me why some choose and others do not if they all have sufficient grace dave....Is mans will stronger than Gods? Who is God then?

[xzins]

Why? Where did his faith come from?

1. The believing thief: Heard, then he was enlightened, then he believed, then he was saved.

2. The unbelieving thief: Heard, then he was enlightened, then he refused to believe, then he remained lost.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Why did the one thief believe and the other not mack..He was hanging on a cross..he knew he was going to die and to be judged..but he did not even hedge his bet...

There is a whole lota of stupid out there Mom. :)

Why? Where did his faith come from?

It came from God, just as the other man's did, the one who was saved, just believed it, the other one did not, any old dummy can understand this, I did. :)

BigMack

[malakhi]

It works both ways too. If we are predestined to be God's child, is our love genuine? What kind of love is love that was not given the choise to love or reject?

Yep. Good point.

[RnMomof7]

General grace is a restraing force that keeps man from being as evil as his heart desires..it keeps us from eating each other and it allows for "orderly " government. It is a witness IN the world of His existance

Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

     Act 14:17   Nevertheless he left not himself without witness, in that he did good, and gave us rain from heaven, and fruitful seasons, filling our hearts with food and gladness.

[malakhi]

God did give us free will .But man will NEVER choose God .

Contradictory. If we cannot choose God, then we do not have free will.

Why would a sovereign God wait on Terry or becky?

Do you think that time has any meaning for God? He is "I AM". All times are eternally present to Him.

[xzins]

a choice implies the ability to choose the good and to reject the bad.

Are you saying that the unsaved have the ability to choose the good?

If so, then we agree on this point.

But if you say that the man was so depraved that he had no option but to make the wrong choice, then you are saying he was not able to choose the good; that there was no possibility that he could choose the good.

That is not free choice.

That is a Soviet communist Election.....only one choice...a bad one.

[malakhi]

God gave man free will. But man will never choose God

Will not, or can not?

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Heretic! :) No, just kidding, see #251, were on the same page. :)

BigMack

[RnMomof7]

He foreknew your choice, Rn, and then he predestined you to BE CONFORMED to the image of his Son.

And when did he foreknow me zxins?...

2 Thessalonians 2:13 - "But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth"

[malakhi]

2. Does God always get what He wants?

Ultimately, yes. The better question is "do we know what He wants all the time"?

Does God want people to be damned to hell for all eternity? Or is it His wish that all be saved?

[CCWoody]

Would the doctrine then be that only certain people are predestined to be "born again" and thus to desire being saved? This sounds very foreign to me; I'm more familiar with the "order of salvation" teaching as held by Mack and Becky.

• 1 John 5:1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God,....

The apostle John is very specific; belief is a result of the new birth, not the cause of the new birth. Unfortunately, until you experience a new birth and become a child of the Most High, you will not see that the kingdom of God is already upon us and the Christ sits upon the throne of David.

• John 3:3 [The Lord Jesus] Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.