No Room for Christ at Saint Patrick's Cathedral

Seattle Catholic ^ | 12 Sep 2002 | Thomas A. Droleskey

[sinkspur]

What did Jesus die to save us from?

Thanks for making my point for me.

[sinkspur]

When was the last time you heard about a memorial Mass for the victims of abortion?

Theologically, there would be no reason to celebrate a Mass FOR unborn infants. They are all in heaven already (I believe) or they are in limbo because, not having been baptized, they cannot enter heaven.

[Desdemona]

"Theologically, there would be no reason to celebrate a Mass FOR unborn infants."

Please, explain for the class because there is at LEAST one annually here in memory of unborn children killed.

[sinkspur]

Please, explain for the class because there is at LEAST one annually here in memory of unborn children killed.

No. I'd prefer to hear from someone who sees the theological rationale behind praying for the souls of aborted unborn children.

To me, it's like praying for the soul of St. Peter.

[xJones]

I attended a friend's United Methodist church in Carrollton, TX twice. The first time the pastor spent the whole sermon in a feely-good talk about packing his daughter's clothes as she left for college. I remember thinking how nice it would be if he would just mention Jesus once, even in passing. That pastor left for another church (greatly mourned by the liberal congregation.)

But the church committee made a mistake. They invited in a black pastor (third generation pastor) who had the bad habit of giving real sermons and talking about Jesus. I heard one of his sermons and thought he had a great sense of humor and didn't pour it on too hard at all. He allowed my friend to start a ladies prayer chain in the church. This was radical and the black pastor lasted two years before the liberal whites chased him out. It was written up in The Dallas Morning News. He had done nothing wrong, excellent family man, no problems - except he kept preaching the gospel. It was cynically funny, these liberal Methodists were so proud to have a *black* preacher, and he turned out to be a Christian. Unfortunately, he left rather bitter, thinking it was his race that was the problem. One on the contrary, his race kept him there longer, they were afraid of the condemnation that they did receive in the newspaper afterwards. These liberals were called "racists". My friend was later chased out because of her prayer chain. That was considered too fundie. Laugh or cry.

[Antoninus]

Throwing abortion in the faces of those people yesterday by Cardinal Egan would have damaged the pro-life cause immeasureably.

No, it would have been a courageous and completely righteous thing to do. Far from damaging the cause, it would strengthen the rest of us not to fear speaking the Truth at all times -- even when faced with powerful hypocrites. Jesus and the Fathers of the Church never failed to do so.

Then again, we know your feelings on Humanae Vitae, don't we?

[sinkspur]

Far from damaging the cause, it would strengthen the rest of us not to fear speaking the Truth at all times.

I suppose you're one of those who thinks it's just dandy for your wife to bring up abortion at a baby shower, or for you to bring up abortion when having a beer with the boys?

That, or you're just stirring the pot, as you are prone to do, Antoninus.

[Aquinasfan]

What did Jesus die to save us from?

Thanks for making my point for me.

Huh? If damnation is not an actual possibility then His warnings regarding damnation would be lies.

[Aquinasfan]

Theologically, there would be no reason to celebrate a Mass FOR unborn infants. They are all in heaven already (I believe) or they are in limbo because, not having been baptized, they cannot enter heaven.

Good point. But at the very least there would be nothing wrong with offering a Mass for all those affected by abortion or in offering a Mass to end abortion.

[Aquinasfan]

I suppose you're one of those who thinks it's just dandy for your wife to bring up abortion at a baby shower, or for you to bring up abortion when having a beer with the boys?

If the mother was pro-abort, I think it would be a great idea to take her aside and say something like, "does this make you reconsider your position on abortion?"

I guess back in WWII you wouldn't have wanted to bring up the Holocaust during the middle of Octoberfest?

When is a good time to talk about abortion?

[Desdemona]

"When is a good time to talk about abortion?"

After thinking about this - a lot - in the last couple of days, honestly, I don't think there is a good time. Certainly not at a Mass celebrated for a different cause. It would be very out of place. There is quite a lot more to life and living than sex and its consequences. I'd like to hear more homilies on why lying and exaggeration is detrimental to humilty and the soul, but you don't hear those anymore, either.

Placing a prayer for the victims of unborn child killing in the litany of the general intercessions at every Mass is fine, IMO, but despite the best efforts of the Planned Parenthood crowd, general discussion regarding anything having to do with sex is still not socially acceptable and makes many people very uncomfortable (hence why yours truly avoids baby showers like the plague).

The hammering on this topic should be consistant, but not thundering. Gentle persuassion will be much more effective.

[Aquinasfan]

"When is a good time to talk about abortion?"

After thinking about this - a lot - in the last couple of days, honestly, I don't think there is a good time. Certainly not at a Mass celebrated for a different cause. It would be very out of place. There is quite a lot more to life and living than sex and its consequences.

Abortion isn't an STD, it's murder.

general discussion regarding anything having to do with sex is still not socially acceptable and makes many people very uncomfortable.

Better uncomfortable people than dead babies.

The hammering on this topic should be consistant, but not thundering. Gentle persuassion will be much more effective.

So we should speak out about abortion? Is your disagreement with tactics? You seem to contradict your first statement.

[Desdemona]

"So we should speak out about abortion? Is your disagreement with tactics? You seem to contradict your first statement."

What seems to be the preferred method among the readers of this forum is hellfire and brimstone and whole homilies on this topic. On another thread, I said I walk out on these homilies. I don't, however, walk out on challenging messages and questions on lying, questions of spiritual aethism, etc., and I also don't walk out on the prayers of the faithful. But I regularly walk out on certain priests who start on this topic and beat it until the carcas is mutilated.

Let's face it, priests would be preaching to the choir on unborn child killing. And sometimes this message is out of place. Not that it's wrong, just out of place - and when it is, it loses it's effectiveness.

In advertising, there is a method of constant "noise". The message is regular, but low key. This is the one, if it were me, I would employ in this case, sort of like the endless prayers for the conversion of Russia (before my time, but I've heard about it). Weekly, at the prayers of the faithful. A constant reminder, there, but not obtrusive.

[Antoninus]

I suppose you're one of those who thinks it's just dandy for your wife to bring up abortion at a baby shower, or for you to bring up abortion when having a beer with the boys?

Apples and oranges. My wife does not have the teaching authority of a Cardinal in the Roman Catholic Church. Nor do I. It is his DUTY to speak the Truth, as Father Corapi says, "whether convenient or inconvenient, when threatened with all kinds of punishments." Heck, even Cardinal Mahony scored the DemocRats on abortion when he gave his otherwise flaccid invocation at their national convention in 2000. This was a missed opportunity by Egan.

Stirring the pot? Is this not part of our mission as Christians? Otherwise, why not just offer incense to the gods when others do, just to keep the peace.