Posted on 09/12/2002 7:19:20 AM PDT by xzins
CC you are on the right track. Here's something for further study: Eschatology in Light of the Gospel
Here is another excellent study: The Synoptic Interpretation of the Christ Event: The Kingdom of God.
And finally something by George Ladd (an historial Premill): The Kingdom of God.
John 5:
[25] Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
[26] For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
[27] And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
The hour is here when the [spiritually] dead will hear Jesus’ voice. Those that hear will live [become born-again].
Notice the passage says the “hour is coming, and now is….”
To continue with John 5:
[28] Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
[29] And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
The time frame has switched from “hour is coming, and now is” to just the “hour is coming.” This portion is still future.
The subject has changed, it is no longer “the dead” it is now all those who are “in the graves.” That would indicate that it has to be those who are physically dead.
Those in the grave shall hear Christ’s voice when He returns. When He does the graves will open and those who are righteous(saved) shall enter into the Kingdom. Those who are unrighteous shall be set aside in Hell to await the Great White Throne judgment.
So you are partially correct. There will be a general resurrection at the coming Christ. The saved to enter the Kingdom and the unsaved to wait in Hell for the final judgment.
Let’s look at Revelation 20.
Revelation 20:
[1] And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
[2] And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
[3] And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
[4] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
[5] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
These first five verses back up my interpretation so far. Satan is bound for a thousand years. The righteous dead enter the Kingdom and the unrighteous dead are set aside until the Final Judgment.
Revelation 20:
[6] Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
[7] And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
[8] And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
[9] And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
[10] And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
[11] And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
[12] And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
[13] And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
[14] And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
[15] And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Here we are told what is to happen after the Millenium. Satan is loosed, nations are deceived again, they go up to battle Jesus. Jesus casts Satan into the Lake of Fire. All the dead are then resurrected and brought before the Great White Throne. They are then thrown into the Lake of Fire.
A clearer way to say this is that the premills need for there to be two mass, bodily resurrections in John 5:25-29, but the resurrection mentioned in v.25 is not a bodily resurrection.
That, in turn, means that the premills need for there to be two mass, bodily resurrections in John 5:28-29. Moreover, the premills need for these to be separated by a literal thousand years. Moreover, the premills need to have believers and unbelievers appearing before the Judgment throne of Christ a thousand years apart.
But John 5:28-29 flatly contradicts the above scenario. It is clearly telling us that there is single bodily resurrection episode for all souls. So, the premill claims are a SATANIC FRAUD.
Thus, the first resurrection mentioned in Revelation 20 is the same one mentioned in John 5:25. The first resurrection in the millennial kingdom of Christ is regeneration-unto-conversion.
Cute, huh? It is just a visionary presentation of our privileges in the gospel. And this is why it's the only place in the entire Bible which explicitly refers to "the thousand years."
The fact that the first resurrection is merely one's experience of conversion unto Christ is why Revelation 20 says "Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power." In other words, this verse is saying precisely the same thing which the Lord said in verse 24 of John 5.
BTW, the fact that the first resurrection in Revelation 20 is not a literal, bodily resurrection also explains something else which the premills are forced to ignore in Revelation 20. The text says "I saw the souls of those who were beheaded."
This strained grammar is telling us that he saw disembodied spirits. They did not have their physically resurrected bodies--because the first resurrection doesn't resurrect their bodies anyway! They were still awaiting their resurrected bodies--i.e., from the second resurrection, of course!
By the way, you should also ask yourself why Revelation 20 describes the disembodied souls as having been "beheaded" rather than fed to the lions or burned to death or the like. (I'll give you a hint: they were not literally beheaded anymore than they were literally resurrected.)
***
Like I said, the literal reading is a trap for the enemies of God. Alas, a few of His true disciples have misunderstood the Lord, but this also happened with His disciples during His earthly ministry.
And I would remind you that the Lord explicitly declared that He used figurative language in order that His enemies would not understand. So, it is not at all wise to presume that Revelation 20 should be read literally. In fact it is stupid to assume that. We have to figure out how to read it. We have to use clearer Scriptures like John 5:25-29 to figure out whether it is to be read literally or non-literally. And John 5:28-29 actually CRUSHES the smug premills' reading.
So does 2 Peter 3.
So, don't scoff at the amills. To do so is to scoff at God Himself.
***
Based on the history of your stubbornness on these threads, I assume that you will not come around, xzins. That's fine with me. When the Lord returns, I'm gonna win the argument.
His ancient people, the seed of Abraham, shall be gathered in with exultation. We will clap our hands when the longwandering nation shall turn unto the true God, and own the rejected Messiah, of the house of David!Spurgeon appears to have been an 'historical' Premillennialist.the Gentiles will not be jealous. They will rejoice as the Jew comes in; and then will the Jews rejoice over the Gentiles, as they see them worshipping Abraham's God. Everything that is to come in the eternal future flashes light into the eyes of believers, and calls upon them to rejoice in anticipation. Nothing prophesied should be dreaded by us. There is nothing foretold by seer, or beheld in vision, that can alarm the Christian. He can stand serenely on the brink of the great eternity, and say, "Come on! Let every event foretold become a fact! Pour out your vials, ye angels! Fall, thou star called Wormwood! Come, Gog and Magog, to the last great battle of Armageddon!"
He seems to confuse the eternal state with the Millennial one, not noticing that a the Millennial state must precede the eternal one.
Classical Premillennialist went the other route and spiritualized the eternal state, by making it a place where only those with Resurrection bodies would reside. (those in resurrection bodies do not need to take from the tree for healing of the nations Rev.22:2)
Thus, they ignored the differences between Rev.20 and 21-22.
That is a remarkable statement; a position birthed in a liberal mindset.
I'd say it's a vote for tossing out the bible.
LOL!
The allegorical method has always been the way to destroy the authority of scripture!
That is how we got the RCC!
Thank you Orgien!
Thank you Augustine!
What? Here is Revelation 20:4
[4] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
John is just describing those who are resurrected and enter the Kingdom. First are those who were sitting on the thrones – the raptured Church. The second group are those who were beheaded for being Christians – the Tribulation Saints.
These two groups, as well as those saved who are still alive when Christ returns are ushered into the literal 1,000 year Kingdom of Christ.
We have to figure out how to read it.
Like those icons of Christian orthodoxy like Philo and Origen? Spiritualize everything?
Ditto. It is only by the sovereign grace of God working through their inconsistencies that keep "replacement" folks and amills from turning aside into every sort of damning heresy. That is why a man can be the best scholar known to the church on Biblical Christology or soteriology, and yet a total mullethead when it comes to prophecy.
Dan
The person who has been supernaturally overwhelmed by the Spirit of God has literally gotten new life from God for his spiritually dead soul.
It's just not materialistic.
John didn't see their corporeal persons, but the souls thereof.
Seems to me that this is the same thing Paul was talking about.
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