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Spurgeon's View of the MILLENNIUM
Pilgrim Pub. ^ | MARK A. MCNEIL

Posted on 09/12/2002 7:19:20 AM PDT by xzins


CONFUSED ABOUT SPURGEON'S PROPHETIC VIEWS?

WELL, NO LONGER!  HERE IS...

.

Charles

Haddon

Spurgeon's

VIEW OF THE

MILLENNIUM

 Annotated Summary by  

MARK A. MCNEIL

"I am not now going into millennial theories, or into any speculation as to dates. I do not know anything at all about such things, and I am not sure that I am called to spend my time in such researches. I am rather called to minister the gospel than to open prophecy. Those who are wise in such things doubtless prize their wisdom, but I have not the time to acquire it, nor any inclination to leave soul-winning pursuits for less arousing themes. I believe it is a great deal better to leave many of these promises, and many of these gracious out-looks of believers, to exercise their full force upon our minds, without depriving them of their simple glory by aiming to discover dates and figures. Let this be settled, however, that if there be meaning in words, Israel is yet to be restored. Israel is to have a SPIRITUAL RESTORATION or a CONVERSION."

[from The Restoration & Conversion of the Jews MTP Vol 10, Year 1864, pg. 429, Ezekiel 37:1-10 (age 30)]

INTRODUCTION

There has been some considerable difference of opinion regarding the position that C. H. Spurgeon, the great Baptist preacher from the 19th century, held in the area of Eschatology regarding the doctrine of the Millennium. Each of the three major divisions within this area of doctrine have proponents who claim Spurgeon as one of their own. Many times authors claim a different millennial view than what Spurgeon actually believed.

It is not our task to sort out the arguments for each view. Such an assignment would take a very large volume (many are available) and the issue would still not be solved for all. We would simply like to define the basic positions and then demonstrate from Spurgeon's own words which one view he held.

PREMILLENNIALISM

The first view regarding the Millennium is that of PREMILLENNIALISM. The prefix, "Pre," denotes "before." The prefix is telling us at what point in relationship to the millennium that Christ will come. This view holds that our Lord will Literally return before a 1,000-year reign of Christ begins. The millennium of Revelation 20 is taken to be literal. If not literal, it at least is speaking of an indefinite period of time following the coming of Christ during which there will be perfect peace on the earth.

Within the premillennialist camp, there have come to be two identifiable views: the "dispensationalist" position, and the "historic" position. For further information defending each of these views, one should consult Reese's The Approaching Advent of Christ [historic] and Dwight Pentecost's Things to Come [dispensational]. Though the differences between the two are important, it is not within the scope of our purpose here to delve into such matters.

AMILLENNIALISM

The second view is called AMILLENNIALISM, or sometimes called "realized eschatology". The prefix, "A-," means "no". This would suggest that those who hold this view do not believe in a millennium. This is somewhat misleading, however. This view is the the product of a consistent Spiritual interpretation of prophetic literature. To those, the millennium is not some future physical reign, but the present reign of Christ in the hearts of believers. The "millennium" is an indefinite period of time (the present age) after which Christ will physically return. Prophecy in the Church, by Oswald Allis, is a standard work for the amillennial position.

This is the position of the Roman Catholic Church, also many other Protestant denominations. It grew out of St. Augustine's spiritualizing of these issues in his writings, and the tendency of many early Christian writers to see the Church as the "new Israel" and therefore the recipient of the promises of the Old Testament for the Jewish nation. Those who hold this view do not speak of the millennium as a future happening.  It is, to them, a Present Reality.

POSTMILLENNIALISM

The third, and last, major view is that of POSTMILLENNIALISM. The prefix "Post" speaks of "after." This teaching promotes the view that the physical return of Christ will Follow an actual millennium. The influence of Christianity will over-take the world for an extended period of time, then Christ will return.

This view appears to be a mixture of the principles that work to produce the first two views. It is not consistently spiritual or literal in its interpretation of the prophetic material relevant to this issue. Perhaps the foremost writing for this position today is The Millennium, by Loraine Boettner.

Spurgeon's VIEW  

With basic definitions before us, then, let's look at some quotes from Spurgeon to see what his position was on the Millennium.

"If I read the word aright, and it is honest to admit that there is much room for difference of opinion here, the day will come, when the Lord Jesus will descend from heaven with a shout, with the trump of the archangel and the voice of God. Some think that this descent of the Lord will be Post-millennial that is, 'after the thousand years' of his reign. I CANNOT THINK SO. I conceive that the advent will be PRE-millennial that He will come first; and then will come the millennium as the result of his personal reign upon earth. But whether or no, this much is the fact, that Christ will suddenly come, come to reign, and come to judge the earth in righteousness." [from Justification & Glory MTP Vol 11, Year 1865, pg. 249, Romans 8:30 (age 31)]

Spurgeon here specifically identifies the Postmillennial view with a clear DENIAL of any adherence to it! Those who attempt to claim Spurgeon for this viewpoint do not demonstrate their contention by referring to clear comparisons such as this one. They rather go to sermons not specifically dealing with both positions and pull out of them ideas that are "compatible" with Postmillennial thinking. This is a faulty way of proving a point, however* especially when they meet squarely with a Spurgeon statement like the one above, and those below.

*NOTE: Furthur, a few postmillennialists (especially GARY NORTH), are guilty of misrepresenting Spurgeon constantly in articles and books; NORTH has repeatedly alleged that "Spurgeon was Postmillennial"yet neither his supplied quotations "say" so, and/or he deliberately does not present a statement by Spurgeon that North will speculate "implies" a Postmillennial position. Our advice is to ignore anything North states regarding Spurgeon's views and Prophecy!

Again, consider Spurgeon's View here in light of 'Postmillennial' teaching...

"Paul does not paint the future with rose-colour: he is no smooth-tongued prophet of a golden age, into which this dull earth may be imagined to be glowing. There are sanguine brethren who are looking forward to everything growing better and better and better, until, at last, this present age ripens into a millennium. They will not be able to sustain their hopes, for Scripture gives them no solid basis to rest upon. We who believe that there will be no millennial reign without the King, and who expect no rule of righteousness except from the appearing of the righteous Lord, are nearer the mark. Apart from the second Advent of our Lord, the world is more likely to sink into a pandemonium than to rise into a millennium. A divine interposition seems to me the hope set before us in Scripture, and, indeed, to be the only hope adequate to the occasion. We look to the darkening down of things; the state of mankind, however improved politically, may yet grow worse and worse spiritually." [from The Form of Godliness Without the Power MTP Vol 35, Year 1889, pg. 301, 2 Timothy 3:5 (age 54)]

"We are to expect the literal advent of Jesus Christ, for he himself by his angel told us, 'This same Jesus which is taken up from you into heaven shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven,' which must mean literally and in person. We expect a reigning Christ on earth; that seems to us to be very plain, and to be put so literally that we dare not spiritualise it. We anticipate a first and a second resurrection; a first resurrection of the righteous, and a second resurrection of the ungodly, who shall be judged, condemned, and punished for ever by the sentence of the great King." [from Things to Come MTP Vol 15, Year 1869, pg. 329, 1 Corinthians 3:22 (age 35)]

Here, stress is laid upon the Literal Nature of the second coming.  Also, after this literal return is stressed a reigning upon the earth.

"We have done once for all with the foolish ideas of certain of the early heretics, that Christ's appearance upon earth was but a phantom. We know that he was really, personally, and physically here on earth. But it is not quite so clear to some persons that he is to come really, personally, and literally, the second time. I know there are some who are labouring to get rid of the fact of a personal reign, but as I take it, the coming and the reign are so connected together, that we must have a spiritual coming if we are to have a spiritual reign. Now we believe and hold that Christ shall come a second time suddenly, to raise his saints at the first judgment, and they shall reign with him afterwards. The rest of the dead live not till after the thousand years are finished. Then shall they rise from their tombs at the sounding of the trumpet, and their judgment shall come and they shall receive the deeds which they have done in their bodies." [from The Two Advents of Christ MTP Vol 8, Year 1862, pg. 39, Hebrews 9:27-28 (age 28)]

[from The Sinner's End MTP Vol 8, Year 1862, pgs. 712-713, Psalms 73:17-18 (age 28)], Spurgeon is discussing the final condition of the sinner "Let us go on to consider their end. The day of days, that dreadful day has come. The millennial rest is over, the righteous have had their thousand years of glory upon earth."

In the quotes above, the order of events fits perfectly the PREmillennial point of view. The final end of the sinner is faced after the righteous have enjoyed a thousand years with Christ.

.

 

"Our Hope is the Personal

PRE-MILLENNIAL

RETURN of the

  Lord Jesus Christ in Glory."

August 1891, age 58  

Of the various articles and writings by those who deny the conclusion that we feel is obvious, none that I have found bases itself on the same type of quotes we have produced (many others could have been given see those that follow). To the contrary, their's are based on "interpreting" Spurgeon's statements apart from such quotes that we have given.

.

We feel safe in concluding, then,

that of the three views we began with,

Spurgeon expressly states that he believes in a

Literal Return of Jesus Christ

BEFORE

a Literal Millennium on the Earth.

———————————————————————————

.

Written by Mark A. McNeil (Houston TX USA), B.A., M.A., & PhD. Student

Author of An Evaluation of the 'Oneness Pentecostal' Movement

$3 + $1 shipping Published by Pilgrim Publications

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NOTES OF INTEREST

Watching and Waiting Magazine

                                          by C. W. H. Griffiths

Published by Sovereign Grace Advent Testimony

1 Donald Way, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 9JB United Kingdom

Stephen A. Toms, secretary

Write and Request the Complete Article            

From the Summer 1990 issue of this magazine, C. W. H. Griffiths states Spurgeon "was a valued standard bearer for historic Pre-millennialism," and then presents an excellent article defending his Pre-millennial position.

Documenting additional quotations which we have added and expanded below

Spurgeon (age 43) There is moreover to be a reign of Christ. I cannot read the Scriptures without perceiving that there is to be a pre-millennial reign, as I believe, upon the earth and that there shall be new heavens and a new earth wherein dwelleth righteousness...

Spurgeon (age 49) Then all His people who are alive at the time of His coming shall be suddenly transformed, so as to be delivered from all the frailties and imperfections of their mortal bodies: The dead shall be raised incorruptible and we shall be changed. Then we shall be presented spirit, soul, and body without spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; in the clear and absolute perfection of our sanctified manhood, presented unto Christ Himself.

Spurgeon (age 50) When the Lord comes there will be no more death; we who are alive and remain (as some of us may be we cannot tell) will undergo a sudden transformation for flesh and blood, as they are, cannot inherit the kingdom of God and by that transformation our bodies shall be made meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light.

Spurgeon (age 52) His coming will cause great sorrow. What does the text say about his coming? All kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Then this sorrow will be very general.

Spurgeon (age 30) [from The Restoration & Conversion of the Jews MTP Vol 10, Year 1864, pgs. 427-430, Ezekiel  37:1-10] Under the preaching of the Word the vilest sinners can be reclaimed, the most stubborn wills can be subdued, the most unholy lives can be sanctified. When the holy "breath" comes from the four winds, when the divine Spirit descends to own the Word, then multitudes of sinners, as on Pentecost's hallowed day, stand up upon their feet, an exceeding great army, to praise the Lord their God. But, mark you, this is not the first and proper interpretation of the text; it is indeed nothing more than a very striking parallel case to the one before us. It is not the case itself; it is only a similar one, for the way in which God restores a nation is, practically, the way in which he restores an individual. The way in which Israel shall be saved is the same by which any one individual sinner shall be saved. It is not, however, the one case which the prophet is aiming at; he is looking at the vast mass of cases, the multitudes of instances to be found among the Jewish people, of gracious quickening, and holy resurrection. His first and primary intention was to speak of them, and though it is right and lawful to take a passage in its widest possible meaning, since "no Scripture is of private interpretation," yet I hold it to be treason to God's Word to neglect its primary meaning, and constantly to say "Such-and-such is the primary meaning, but it is of no consequence, and I shall use the words for another object." The preacher of God's truth should not give up the Holy Ghost's meaning; he should take care that he does not even put it in the back ground. The first meaning of a text, the Spirit's meaning, is that which would be brought out first, and though the rest may fairly spring out of it, yet the first sense should have the chief place. Let it have the uppermost place in the synagogue, let it be looked upon as at least not inferior, either in interest or importance, to any other meaning which may come out of the text.

The meaning of our text, as opened up by the context, is most evidently, if words mean anything, first, that there shall be a political restoration of the Jews to their own land and to their own nationality; and then, secondly, there is in the text, and in the context, a most plain declaration, that there shall be a spiritual restoration, a conversion in fact, of the tribes of Israel.

The promise is that they shall renounce their idols, and, behold, they have already done so. "Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols." Whatever faults the Jew may have besides, he certainly has no idolatry. "The Lord thy God is one God," is a truth far better conceived by the Jew than by any other man on earth except the Christian. Weaned for ever from the worship of all images, of whatever sort, the Jewish nation has now become infatuated with traditions or duped by philosophy. She is to have, however, instead of these delusions, a spiritual religion: she is to love her God. "They shall be my people, and I will be their God." The unseen but omnipotent Jehovah is to be worshipped in spirit and in truth by his ancient people; they are to come before him in his own appointed way, accepting the Mediator whom their sires rejected; coming into covenant relation with God, for so our text tells us "I will make a covenant of peace with them," and Jesus is our peace, therefore we gather that Jehovah shall enter into the covenant of grace with them, that covenant of which Christ is the federal head, the substance, and the surety. They are to walk in God's ordinances and statutes, and so exhibit the practical effects of being united to Christ who hath given them peace. All these promises certainly imply that the people of Israel are to be converted to God, and that this conversion is to be permanent, for the tabernacle of God is to be with them, the Most High is, in an especial manner, to have his sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore; so that whatever nations may apostatize and turn from the Lord in these latter days, the nation of Israel never can, for she shall be effectually and permanently converted, the hearts of the fathers shall be turned with the hearts of the children unto the Lord their God, and they shall be the people of God, world without end.

We look forward, then, for these two things. I am not going to theorize upon which of them will come first, whether they shall be restored first, and converted afterwards, or converted first, and then restored. They are to be restored, and they are to be converted too. Let the Lord send these blessings in his own order, and we shall be well content whichever way they shall come. We take this for our joy and our comfort, that this thing shall be, and that both in the spiritual and in the temporal throne, the King Messiah shall sit, and reign among his people gloriously.

Spurgeon (age 30) [from The Lamb the Light MTP Vol 10, Year 1864, pg. 439, Revelation 21:23] (Spurgeon says of the millennial earth), They shall not say one to another, "Know the Lord: for all shall know him, from the least to the greatest." There may be even in that period certain solemn assemblies and Sabbath-days, but they will not be of the same kind as we have now; for the whole earth will be a temple, every day will be a Sabbath, the avocations of men will all be priestly, they shall be a nation of priests distinctly so, and they shall day without night serve God in his temple, so that everything to which they set their hand shall be a part of the song which shall go up to the Most High. Oh! blessed day. Would God it had dawned, when these temples should be left, because the whole world should be a temple for God. But whatever may be the splendours of that day and truly here is a temptation to let our imagination revel however bright may be the walls set with chalcedony and amethyst, however splendid the gates which are of one pearl, whatever may be the magnificence set forth by the "streets of gold," this we know, that the sum and substance, the light and glory of the whole will be the person of our Lord Jesus Christ, "for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof." Now, I want the Christian to meditate over this. In the highest, holiest, and happiest era that shall ever dawn upon this poor earth, Christ is to be her light. When she puts on her wedding garments, and adorns herself as a bride is adorned with jewels, Christ is to be her glory and her beauty. There shall be no ear-rings in her ears made with other gold than that which cometh from his mine of love; there shall be no crown set upon her brow fashioned by any other hand than his hands of wisdom and of grace. She sits to reign, but it shall be upon his throne; she feeds, but it shall be upon his bread; she triumphs, but it shall be because of the might which ever belongs to him who is the Rock of Ages. Come then, Christian, contemplate for a moment thy beloved Lord. Jesus, in a millennial age, shall be the light and the glory of the city of the new Jerusalem. Observe then, that Jesus makes the light of the millennium, because his presence will be that which distinguishes that age from the present. That age is to be akin to paradise. Paradise God first made upon earth, and paradise God will last make. Satan destroyed it; and God will never have defeated his enemy until he has re-established paradise, until once again a new Eden shall bless the eyes of God's creatures. Now, the very glory and privilege of Eden I take to be not the river which flowed through it with its four branches, nor that it came from the land of Havilah which hath dust of gold I do not think the glory of Eden lay in its grassy walks, or in the boughs bending with luscious fruit but its glory lay in this, that the "Lord God walked in the garden in the cool of the day." Here was Adam's highest privilege, that he had companionship with the Most High. In those days angels sweetly sang that the tabernacle of God was with man, and that he did dwell amongst them. Brethren, the paradise which is to be regained for us will have this for its essential and distinguishing mark, that the Lord shall dwell amongst us. This is the name by which the city is to be called Jehovah Shammah, the Lord is there. It is true we have the presence of Christ in the Church now "Lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world." We have the promise of his constant indwelling: "Where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." But still that is vicariously by his Spirit, but soon he is to be personally with us. That very man who once died upon Calvary is to live here. He that same Jesus who was taken up from us, shall come in like manner as he was taken up from the gazers of Galilee. Rejoice, rejoice, beloved, that he comes, actually and really comes; and this shall be the joy of that age, that he is among his saints, and dwelleth in them, with them, and talketh and walketh in their midst.

"If I read the word aright, and it is honest to admit that there is much room for difference of opinion here, the day will come, when the Lord Jesus will descend from heaven with a shout, with the trump of the archangel and the voice of God. Some think that this descent of the Lord will be Post-millennial that is, 'after the thousand years' of his reign. I CANNOT THINK SO. I conceive that the advent will be PRE-millennial that He will come first; and then will come the millennium as the result of his personal reign upon earth. But whether or no, this much is the fact, that Christ will suddenly come, come to reign, and come to judge the earth in righteousness." [from Justification & Glory MTP Vol 11, Year 1865, pg. 249, Romans 8:30 (age 31)]



TOPICS: General Discusssion
KEYWORDS: amillennialism; burnservetus; calburnbibles; calvinism; falsedoctrine; heritics; millenium; postmillennialism; premillennialism
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To: hopespringseternal; Matchett-PI
I am left with the distinct impression that like so many others, you simply refuse to address divisiveness as a sin. I don't think God sent Paul to denounce what God was doing.

You are way off topic with this thread so I am only going to give you a brief response....



You continually stumble around in the darkness, understanding neither what you say nor the things which you affirm.

The question is, would God ever send an apostle to denounce what people are doing if He claims to ultimately be responsible for bringing it about: Acts 2:22 Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know--Him, being delivered by the determined counsel and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death.

Acts 4:27 For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done.

Zech 13:7 "Awake, O sword, against My Shepherd, against the Man who is My Companion," says the Lord of hosts.
2,621 posted on 10/23/2002 1:24:48 PM PDT by theAmbassador
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To: drstevej
No, I've formed an opinion of you and it stands. Now I'm off to the study hall while you play online and try to make everyone like you, and that's what matters after all, that they like you.
2,622 posted on 10/23/2002 1:25:05 PM PDT by JesseShurun
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To: JesseShurun
Guess I'll be sending one less Christmas card.

Restornu and White Mountain will appreciate you joining their anti-drstevej Fan Club.
2,623 posted on 10/23/2002 1:34:08 PM PDT by drstevej
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To: fortheDeclaration
We move from an altar, to a table (Lord's Supper) to a Throne

Seated bodily at the right hand of the Father?

2,624 posted on 10/23/2002 1:43:27 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: xzins
How will the millennial reign of Christ here on earth be any different than it is now?

There will be sin and sinners..there will be birth and death , there will be spiritual rebellion against Christ.

How do you see this time as different than the one in which we live right now ?

2,625 posted on 10/23/2002 1:48:22 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7; Jean Chauvin; the_doc
Guys I love it when I have a insight that seems a bit off the wall...and then I go to look up to see what a REAL scholar thought and find I am not necessarily so nuts:>)

From what I've seen, you are a real fruit cake (John 15:5).

And if you will notice, John 15 does call Jesus the "true vine". This vine bears fruit. So, I do agree with you and Gill. We shall live as long as the Tree of Life which feeds us and in whom we abide, which, of course, is forever.
2,626 posted on 10/23/2002 1:55:34 PM PDT by theAmbassador
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To: fortheDeclaration; drstevej
Well, dr. according to the more 'extreme' Calvinists it is, since they believe God has directly willed everything (good and bad) not allowing for a permissive will (as I believe you do)

If he believes in the "permissive will" of God as you do he is NOT a Calvinist...BTW we think everything that happens here is within His will OR IT WOULD NOT HAPPEN

2,627 posted on 10/23/2002 1:55:43 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: theAmbassador; the_doc
Thank you...I am a nut ...But it did seem to be a bit of the shadow of things on my reading..

When that happens I get really excited..it is like a Birthday present

Doc was doing something on trees ..wonder if that had crossed his mind??

2,628 posted on 10/23/2002 2:07:14 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7; fortheDeclaration; drstevej; jude24; editor-surveyor
How will the millennial reign of Christ here on earth be any different than it is now?

How will The New Heavens and The New Earth (NHNE) be any different than it is now....there will be sinners, birth, and death? All according to the amill position. AND, some of them have only symbolic sin, birth, and death in the NHNE.

It will be different, Rn, because you will be in your resurrection body serving the Lord in person.

On Earth Christ will be literally reigning and renewing all things so that the earth will blossum into a beautiful paradise. He will be conducting His work that will lead to the end of death for "he must reign until...the last enemy to be destroyed is death."

Those who live in earthly bodies on the face of the earth will be ruled with a rod of iron and obedience will be the rule. These will live extraordinarily long lives. Many will trust in Christ, however, when Satan is released he will deceive those whose hearts did not truly belong to Christ.

There is a whole lot that is different in the millennial kingdom.

You know, of course, that Rev 5, Rev 20, and 1 Co 15 irrefutably prove the millenial reign of Christ on the earth after his return?

2,629 posted on 10/23/2002 2:09:30 PM PDT by xzins
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To: xzins; Jean Chauvin; the_doc
But amillennialism won't permit him to come back to earth, apparently. They say that he's now High Priest and cannot return.

Are you actually suggesting that the Bible doesn't say that the Lord is functioning in the office of High Priest right now? Are you really that eager for the Lord to hand you over to Satan to teach you not to Blasphemy the Word?
2,630 posted on 10/23/2002 2:12:21 PM PDT by theAmbassador
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To: the_doc; fortheDeclaration
Are you actually talking to me? Or are you just gonna declare me a heretic again and run away once more?

Did you ever write up an exposition of the amillennial position? I can't get any of these people to give me a single place in scripture that gives a clear presentation of "amillennialism" the way Rev 20 gives a clear presentation of premillennialism.

Can you give that single location in scripture that does so?

I guess if you were just playing hit-and-run kibitzer you won't answer this.

2,631 posted on 10/23/2002 2:15:58 PM PDT by xzins
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To: theAmbassador; fortheDeclaration; jude24
Was it you or Jean who said that Christ couldn't return because he is High Priest? I think it was Jean. Go talk to him....he's the one who came up with that gem.

ftD, looks like the bible beat back the mongol hoard one more time. Those Rev 20 passages are so GREAT to have on our side!!!

Can you imagine fighting against the one place in scripture that gives a single, chronological preview of Christ's return to earth?

2,632 posted on 10/23/2002 2:20:57 PM PDT by xzins
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To: RnMomof7
How will the millennial reign of Christ here on earth be any different than it is now?

He will be on the throne of David on earth. I don't see Him there now. He is at the right hand of the Father until He returns for His Church.

2,633 posted on 10/23/2002 2:23:49 PM PDT by RochesterFan
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To: xzins; Jean Chauvin; JesseShurun; RnMomof7; the_doc
He will be conducting His work that will lead to the end of death...

You mean every work of His but His work as High Priest: So much for the unchangeable priesthood of Christ. No wonder you Premillennialists are so eager for a return of the Levitical sacrifices of the lambs. You have lost your High Priest and will once again need to return to the shadow of things that were to hope in your salvation.

It is at this point that you need to make a new line to your pretty charts that say Premillennialism has a changeable priesthood of Christ.
2,634 posted on 10/23/2002 2:27:44 PM PDT by theAmbassador
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To: xzins
Here is my problem, xzins. I have never before thought this millennal thing through..now I am working on it

I do not know what I thought before..

It will be different, Rn, because you will be in your resurrection body serving the Lord in person.

That will also be true in the New Jerusalem....but this is not about me in my new size 5 with good knees body:>)

On Earth Christ will be literally reigning and renewing all things so that the earth will blossum into a beautiful paradise. He will be conducting His work that will lead to the end of death for "he must reign until...the last enemy to be destroyed is death."

That was defeated when He rose from the dead...Oh "death whee is your victory? " I have already risen with Him..I am just living in the old house *grin*

Those who live in earthly bodies on the face of the earth will be ruled with a rod of iron and obedience will be the rule. These will live extraordinarily long lives. Many will trust in Christ, however, when Satan is released he will deceive those whose hearts did not truly belong to Christ.

I do not see WHY Jesus has to come here to live among the reprobate world ..what will the purpose be of this rule?

There is a whole lot that is different in the millennial kingdom.

If sin persists and rebellion needs to be quieted with the rod

Is a long life really all it is about?

I am considering this Millennial thing xzins...I had always considered it a time of perfection..under the rule of the perfect...thinking this through it seems it is actually little different...there will be sin originating in the unregenerate heart of men.....not much different at all

2,635 posted on 10/23/2002 2:32:28 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: theAmbassador; fortheDeclaration
Hebrews 8:4 If He were on earth, He would not be a priest...

You are interpreting this to mean that Christ cannot return to earth? That is so odd that it defies the history of real Christianity. The return of Christ has always been taught everywhere and at all times.

2,636 posted on 10/23/2002 2:44:31 PM PDT by xzins
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To: RochesterFan; RnMomof7
18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

Christ came to bear witness to the truth, His kingdom is spiritual.
If earthly power and elements were sufficient, the Old Covenant would have been sufficient.

Heb 8:1 Now the point in what we are saying is this: we have such a high priest, one who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, 8:2 a minister in the sanctuary and the true tent which is set up not by man but by the Lord. 8:3 For every high priest is appointed to offer gifts and sacrifices; hence it is necessary for this priest also to have something to offer. 8:4 Now if he were on earth, he would not be a priest at all, since there are priests who offer gifts according to the law. 8:5 They serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly sanctuary; for when Moses was about to erect the tent, he was instructed by God, saying, "See that you make everything according to the pattern which was shown you on the mountain." 8:6 But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry which is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises. 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion for a second.

The earthly covenant was imperfect, faulted. Christ is the mediator of a better covenant. A perfect one, a heavenly one!

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received what was promised, but having seen it and greeted it from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. 14 For people who speak thus make it clear that they are seeking a homeland. 15 If they had been thinking of that land from which they had gone out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one.
Heb 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, 23 and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks more graciously than the blood of Abel.


The New Covenant IS the kingdom of Christ.
He DOES rule from the throe of David, in heaven.
Because the earthly one was a shadow of the heavenly one which He will always sit on!!
2,637 posted on 10/23/2002 2:45:13 PM PDT by nate4one
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To: RochesterFan; RnMomof7
18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

Christ came to bear witness to the truth, His kingdom is spiritual.
If earthly power and elements were sufficient, the Old Covenant would have been sufficient.

Heb 8:1 Now the point in what we are saying is this: we have such a high priest, one who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, 8:2 a minister in the sanctuary and the true tent which is set up not by man but by the Lord. 8:3 For every high priest is appointed to offer gifts and sacrifices; hence it is necessary for this priest also to have something to offer. 8:4 Now if he were on earth, he would not be a priest at all, since there are priests who offer gifts according to the law. 8:5 They serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly sanctuary; for when Moses was about to erect the tent, he was instructed by God, saying, "See that you make everything according to the pattern which was shown you on the mountain." 8:6 But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry which is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises. 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion for a second.

The earthly covenant was imperfect, faulted. Christ is the mediator of a better covenant. A perfect one, a heavenly one!

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received what was promised, but having seen it and greeted it from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. 14 For people who speak thus make it clear that they are seeking a homeland. 15 If they had been thinking of that land from which they had gone out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one.
Heb 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, 23 and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks more graciously than the blood of Abel.


The New Covenant IS the kingdom of Christ.
He DOES rule from the throe of David, in heaven.
Because the earthly one was a shadow of the heavenly one which He will always sit on!!
2,638 posted on 10/23/2002 2:45:33 PM PDT by nate4one
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To: RnMomof7; fortheDeclaration; drstevej
Death has been defeated. The death of my 5 relatives this past year proves to me that it isn't destroyed. There is a difference. It is almost the same as D-Day in WWII. It was the defeat of Germany. But that old, hateful system wasn't destroyed until after the death of Hitler.

Rn, you had a view of the millennium which was not according to scripture. Since the millennial reign of Christ after his return to earth is irrefutably taught in Rev 5, Rev 20, and 1 Co 15, then what you should be desiring is a proper perspective on what scripture says about the millennial kingdom.

They are now saying that there will be death and sin in the NHNE. They are saying it is "symbolic." You should also be very concerned with what in the world all of that means. And they never answered the questions about Satan being bound in "this day" and "this age." You realize, as do I, that that is an absurdity....only able to be taught by those who "symbolize" Satan's imprisonment.

2,639 posted on 10/23/2002 2:53:35 PM PDT by xzins
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To: xzins
Right.
2,640 posted on 10/23/2002 3:00:45 PM PDT by the_doc
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