What is predestination?

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/9170/SPROUL13.HTM ^ | 9/11/02 | R. C. Sproul

[RnMomof7]

What is predestination?

by R. C. Sproul ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    When the Bible speaks of predestination, it speaks of God's sovereign involvement in certain things before they happen. He chooses in advance certain things to take place. For example, he predestined creation. Before God created the world, he decided to do it.

    Usually when people think of predestination, they think about whether or not somebody was hit by an automobile on a given day because God had decided ahead of time that that should happen on that day.

    Theologically, the principal issue of predestination in the Bible has to do with God selecting people for salvation beforehand. The Bible clearly does teach that somehow God chooses people for salvation before they're even born. Virtually every Christian church believes that, because this concept is so clearly taught in Scripture.

    Paul refers to Jacob and Esau. Before they were even born, before they had done any good or evil, God decreed in advance that the elder would serve the younger: "Jacob have I loved; Esau have I hated." The point there is that God had chosen certain benefits for one of those two before they were even born.

    The real debate is, On what basis does God predestine? We know that he predestines, but why does he predestine, and what is the basis for his choices? Many Christians believe that God knows in advance what people are going to do, what choices they're going to make, and what activities they're going to be involved in. As he looks through the corridor of time and knows what choices you will make, for example, he knows that you will hear the gospel. He knows whether you will say yes or no. If he knows that you are going to say yes, then he chooses you for salvation on the basis of his prior knowledge. I don't hold that position. I think that God does this sovereignly, not arbitrarily, not whimsically. The only basis I see for predestination in the Bible is the good pleasure of his own will. The only other reason is to honor his only begotten Son. The reason for his selection is not in me and not in you and not in some foreseen good or evil, but in his own sovereignty.

Reprinted by permission of Ligonier Ministries from "Now That's A Good Question" by R.C. Sproul.----------------

[RnMomof7]

***Simply put, if God's will [PRECEPTIVE]is reflected in his commandments, such as the commandment to repent, then how could his will [DECRETIVE] be reflected in our failure to repent?***

How would we know we are sinners without the law Steve? How would we know we need a Savior with out them? How would we know the perfection and holiness of God without the law?

It is our school master..it is our the map that leads us to Him...it is the law that God uses to bring us to repentance.

It is indeed circular...to us.:>)

[Catholicguy]

I am not "fleeing" anything..hey have ya ever known me to run away?

I am simply choosing my words to express what I believe

There are two schools of thought on this..one is that God made a positive decision to make certain men for the purpose of destruction...the other is God made men and then chose to save some of them (which is what I believe)

<> That is the same school. The consequence of your belief is that God chose NOT to save everyone, or, stated differently He created men to populate Hell.

God created man in His own image and He knew everything that was going to happen from the Creation of Adam to the end of time. He created some and said, "To Heaven with them." He created others and said, "To Hell with them." That is your belief. <>

God..for His own purpose chose to save some of His creation and not others..He is the creator ..He has a right to do with His creation as He wills

<> I thank the Lord your belief about God is revealed for all to see and reject. <>

[drstevej]

Agreed.

[P-Marlowe]

Divine Sovereignty and Human Accountibility side by side in Scripture without explanation and without embarrasment. I don't claim to be able to fully explain. I will ardently affirm both.

Ditto.

God's will is reflected in his DESIRE that we repent. His sovereignty is reflected in his Knowledge that many will not. And Man's free will in reflected in the fact that man can act against God's will and against God's desire.

Are we still in agreement?

[drstevej]

***Are we still in agreement?*** No, we are not.

***His sovereignty is reflected in his Knowledge that many will not.***

Acts 2:23 wasn't simple foreknowledge, it was His determinant counsel. Pre-planned not pre-viewed. The word "foreknow" is more than pre-view as I understand the greek term.


***And Man's free will in reflected in the fact that man can act against God's will [PRECEPTIVE or DECRETIVE?] and against God's desire.***

If you mean in the above preceptive will, I agree. If you mean decretive will, I disagree.

Further, the natural man's will is free to sin only -- because that is his nature.

[P-Marlowe]

If you mean in the above preceptive will, I agree. If you mean decretive will, I disagree.

Expain the difference in common elizabethan english so that we can all understand.

Are there things in the universe that God allows, but that he would have prefered did not occur (such as sin)? Or does God prefer that sin occurs so that his "decretive" will is satisfied?

Do you see the paradox?

[rwfromkansas]

I updated my predestination paper, which now is 16 pages long......lol. Anyway, I included something about how Arminians claim that in Romans 9 it is referring to only OT election. I then gave a direct quote from the verse that states the exact opposite.....that the election is for everyone....:)

I also found an interesting verse in Revelation that calls Christians the "called, chosen, faithful" followers of the Lord. I think I did a good job on updating the paper....adding a lot of stuff dealing with predestination itself instead of dwelling mostly on prevenient grace. This is the link if you want to read it....I won't post it here again I don't think unless folks want me to. http://www.geocities.com/rwfromkansas/Potterpredestination.htm

BTW, I included a great portion of Ezekiel where the bones are on the ground and they come alive at the command of the Lord. I think that is pretty cool and really proves total depravity.

[drstevej]

Preceptive will = (from the word precept or command) is His revealed moral will. Ex. Thou shall not..., Thou shall...

Decretive will = (from the word decree) that which God has determined shall come to pass which Eph. 1:11 says includes "all things."

***Are there things in the universe that God allows, but that he would have prefered did not occur (such as sin)?***

He allowed Satan to kill Job's children. The Chaldeans and the Sabeans killed Job's servants (murder). He used that to demonstrate to Satan that unselfish worship is possible. He used it in Job's life to teach him. He used it in my life to teach me and through me to comfort others.

He allowed Israel to have a king, Saul, rather than have God as their king. Yet even in establishing the role of king He replaced Saul with David, a type of Jesus, Our King.

***Do you see the paradox?***
Certainly there are questions I can't answer. I have said before Divine Sovereignty and Human Accountability are placed side by side, without explanation or apology.

Can I resolve the two fully? NO. Do I lose any sleep over it? I used to but haven't for 25 years.

I can't unscrew the inscrutible.

[RnMomof7]

<> That is the same school. The consequence of your belief is that God chose NOT to save everyone, or, stated differently He created men to populate Hell.<>

Does God save everyone?

How is man saved ? Is it universal?...Or is only Catholics that eat his body?

[RnMomof7]

And Man's free will in reflected in the fact that man can act against God's will and against God's desire.


Who is God then??

[P-Marlowe]

Here's the real paradox steve. If God is in as much control as RnMomof7 seems to think he is, then his control extends to the fact that he has declared all of my actions from the foundation of the earth and in essence controls whether or not I violate his commandments. If he wanted me to not violate his commandments, then he would not allow me to violate any of his commandments. But using Rn's logic, if I then sin, then I am sinning in accordance with "the good pleasure of his will." If I do good it is in accordance with the good pleasure of his will. indeed, if I pick my nose it is in accordance with the good pleasure of his will and anything that happens in the universe occurs only because God has declared it. This makes god the cause of my sin, and in essence makes me innocent of any of my own actions.

Taken to its logical conclusion and not even taken to its logical extreme, I cannot sin because all that I do is in accordance with the "good pleasure of his will." Therefore even if I am sinning, even if I am blaspheming God, it can only be said of me that "I do only those things that please the Father." If I do good, I am acting in accordance with his will. If I do evil I am acting in accordance with his will.

While the paradox is solved using this logic, it makes God the author of sin and it makes God pleased with sin.

The bible is filled with references about how God is disappointed with the actions of men. If men were only doing those things that were in accordance with the "good pleasure" of his will, then God could no more be disappointed in Hitler than he would be disappointed in Saint Peter, as every one of their actions were declared by God according to the Good pleasure of His will.

Of course neither of us believes that, but the logical extension of the Calvinist interpretation of the sovereignty of God and the lack of sovereingty of man makes the conclusion inescapable.

You use the word "allowed" a lot. Other Calvinists seem to say that the word "allowed" is too weak and that the proper word should be decreed or declared. Well, which one is it?

If God allows man to violate his commandments, are men exercising free will when they do so? And if God allows man to keep his commandments, are men exercising free will when they do so?

Is the sovereingty of God wholly incompatible with the idea that God, exercising his unlimited sovereignty, "allows" man to exercise limited sovereignty and to accept or reject the gospel based on the calling of the Holy spirit rather than forcing man to accept the gospel based upon the compelling of the Holy Spirit?

[P-Marlowe]

BTW steve, where in the bible are these terms PRECEPTIVE and DECRETIVE? Are the words in the Greek and Hebrew different for "Preceptive will" than they are for "Decretive will?" Or is this just something they teach in theology school? :-)

[P-Marlowe]

Who is God then??

If you act in rebellion to God's will, then I guess from your standpoint, you are. And thus you will be rightfully condemned by God for violating commandment #1, huh?

The question is whether or not it is God who caused you to violate that commandment? If so, then you are only doing those things which are pleasing to the father. Hence if you do not have the free will to act contrary to God's will, you cannot sin. You would be as perfect as God created you. And my momma says God didn't make no mistakes.

[drstevej]

P-Marlowe. I honestly find it difficult to effectively discuss these issues in this kind of forum. First, there are some issues I find more constructive to TALK about rather than type and to be FACE to FACE rather than with the delays of this format. In part it is because I have always preferred verbal to written communication. I talked a few professors into oral rather than written exams for this reason.

The more comples the topic the more this is the case for me. So visit BR some time and I'll carve out several ideas to hash some of these issues out. Or give me a phone call.

Also, as I read your posts I really can recall many of my thoughts and struggles with similar issues a number of years back when these issues were front burner for me. You, as an attrorney by training, and me, as an engineer by training, want to tie all of the loose ends together and cover all of the what ifs. However, in some areas of theology I have found the need to affirm biblical truth when I can not always reconcile the details. This isn't laziness on my part because I have spent the time exploring and looking for answers. I have learned to embrace my finiteness and blatant non-omniscience.

Hope you don't take this as avoidance and I could have sent this via freep mail to you. However, I don't know how much I can help.

Re the decretive and preceptive will terminology. The terms aren't found as such in the Bible but I believe they are nevertheless biblical distinctions. The greek terms for will are not one diomensional and allow for some range of meaning. I have pointed out verses that explain the difference. For me, appreciating this disctinction removes some of the confusion and are therefore helpful.

A book I found helpful was Decision Making and the Will of God by Gary Friesen and Robin Maxson. Their dioscussion if the distinction between the preceptive and decretive will of God is well presented.

Shalom,
Steve

[P-Marlowe]

Did you notice that WM had the "don't flag me" thread pulled? I guess for some people if they can't stand the heat, they just blow up the kitchen.

[drstevej]

WHINE MOUNTAIN strikes again...

[P-Marlowe]

However, in some areas of theology I have found the need to affirm biblical truth when I can not always reconcile the details.

I agree. That is why the fence is the best place to sit in an argument between strict Calvinists and strict Arminians. That is where I am. I believe that is where I have always been. Well at least since I left the LDS Church anyway.

At least you are honest enough to recognize the paradox. I suppose that is common ground we can build upon.

[drstevej]

***At least you are honest enough to recognize the paradox.***

We sit on different portions of the fence and would state the paradox in differing terms. I can handle that.

[P-Marlowe]

We sit on different portions of the fence

Lean to the left, lean to the right, stand up, sit down, fight, fight, fight.

[RnMomof7]

He had it pulled..here I was watching TV ..I was innocent!!

Marlowe when your faith is indefensible you have threads pulled

So we bury that thread