Miracle Cure Brings Sainthood to Polish Nun (Divine Mercy)

Detroit News via the Washington Post ^ | April 26, 2000 | Carlyle Murphy

[JMJ333]

And who is your authority to translate that scripture? You?

How do you know if that scripture is divinely inspired since it was Rome who put it together and approved it? You reject Rome so you must have an alternative source for authority. Who is it that lends the backing to your interpretation?

[Wrigley]

Hunh? What are you talking about?

How about showing from Scripture where we are directed to ask those who are dead to interceed for us? Back your view. I haven't seen it yet.

[Lady In Blue]

This is so beautiful!! Thank you Aliska for posting it.

[drstevej]

*** you guys continually laud the Jewish people who use tradition as well as the Torah and sacred scripture***

Explain.

Torah is ordinarily used to denote the Law, the five Books of Moses. That is Scripture.

When and how have I or other Protestants "lauded Jewish people" for "using tradition?" I really do not understand your point here.

[JMJ333]

I wouldn't expect you to recognize maccabees and other books that outline the subject. This goes back to Sola Scriptura. On the one hand, you recognize that Jews have their traditions along with their torah. On the other hand, this is not acceptable for the Catholics who carried on this teaching. The bible is not a full scale theological treatise, nor a teaching manual. The letters from Paul were to an already thriving church--this was before they had any scripture compiled. Asking intercession goes back to the founding fathers. I can post quotes from them if you like. You, of course, will not be able to cede my point because that would mean you would have to recognize the unbiblical principle of sola scriptura.

[Wrigley]

So there is NO Scriptual support of this practice? Correct?

[JMJ333]

I didn't mean to broad brush you. I have seen plenty of protestants on the "Never ending story" who are very cozy with angelo and others. They do not mind that the Jewish people cling to their traditions. They do not insist that they not use traditions because it isn't in their scripture. Not so when it comes to us.

[Wrigley]

On the one hand, you recognize that Jews have their traditions along with their torah.

Once again, Hunh? When have I stated this?

[JMJ333]

There is, but do you accept Maccabees? No. Do you accpet anything but sola scriptura? No.

There is no place in the bible that defines the Trinity in the way we teach it either. Did you realize that?

[JMJ333]

I was broad brushing. I may as well ask though. Do you have a problem with Jews using tradition as well as their scripture? If so, why?

[Wrigley]

Is the only way for salvation thru faith in Jesus Christ?

[JMJ333]

Yes, of course. What does that have to do with asking saints for help in getting prayers answered or of Jews who use tradition as well as scripture?

[drstevej]

Didn't think the reference was to me.

I have no problem with traditions per se, Jewish or otherwise. I find tradition fascinating and interesting. However, tradition that contradicts the Bible or is elevated to a par with the Bible I would reject whether it is RC, Jewish or Protestant.

I know we disagree on this. My point is that I view Jewish tradition in no different manner than other traditions.

[CCWoody]

You're the only one that can't figure out what intercessory means. Of course the prayers are addressed to the particular saint.

Nope, I know exactly what intercession means. Am I to understand that according to your definition of prayer that if I walk up to a friend at church and ask him to pray with me (or for me) that I am praying to my friend to pray for me. If so, then you have a stupid definition of prayer.

And that is because you're as blind as a bat and unable to comprehend things even when they come straight from the dictionary and are higlighted in bold.

Well, show me the dictionary definition for prayer that says anytime I ask my friend to pray with/for me.

And who is your authority to translate that scripture? You?

Are you now going to change the subject as you have been thrashed in this debate, totally unable to produce a single Scripture verse to back up your claim that Prayers to a saint... is Scriptural.

[JMJ333]

Why would you do that anyway? Is your friend a saint? I'm sure you think so, but we are talking about people who are in heaven with God. If you think that it is stupid, as you obviously do, then what more can I say? I'm sorry to have strained your neuron.

[Wrigley]

Well, the Jews have their religion. We are told the only way for Salvation is thru Jesus Christ. That the Jews have the Torah plus tradition does nothing for your argument. We are talking about the where praying to saints is Biblical. The argument needs to stay with Christians faith, not Jewish. Since we both agree that faith in Jesus Christ is the only way to Salvation, what the Jews do does not pertian to our discussion.

[JMJ333]

And no, asking what authority you use to interpret scripture isn't changeing the subject. It begs asking since you refer to the bible for all of your arguments. How do you know you are even using inspired scripture since you reject Rome? Who is your authority?

[CCWoody]

There is no place in the bible that defines the Trinity in the way we teach it either. Did you realize that?

Yep, thoroughly thrashed and unable to produce a verse of any kind, you will now delcare the Trinity to be unScriptural.

Sigh! Ok, I'll play: What aspect of the Trinity is not Scriptural? (I'll check your response after I get done walking my dog.)

[JMJ333]

I see. So, the Jews can use tradition and it has always been acceptable that they do so. The apostles, who were Jewish carried on that particular manner of teaching, but because it is the Catholic church we are now talking about it is unaaceptable. That is the answer I expected. I will continue to rever the saints as it has been done since the beginning of Christianity.

[JMJ333]

The doctrine of the Trinity: Once a Christian has the doctrine of the Trinity, Scripture can be found to support it, but no verse or combination of verses in Scripture tells us that there is one God in Three Persons, each Person wholly and entirely God, all co-equal, co-eternal, and possessing the divine nature totally unto Himself, the Godhead having but one divine intellect and one divine will.

The Holy Spirit is one of the three Persons of the Trinity: Certainly Scripture can be found which tells us the Holy Spirit is God (e.g., Acts 5:3-4), but nowhere does it say that God consists of more than one Person. Numerous early heresies concerning the Holy Spirit arose both because the canon of Scripture was not yet fully defined and because those elements of Scripture that were recognized were simply not all that clear on how the Holy Spirit fit into the Godhead.

What you defend to the Mormons on a daily basis originated in Rome. I just had this discussion with someone else earlier this evening.