Miracle Cure Brings Sainthood to Polish Nun (Divine Mercy)

Detroit News via the Washington Post ^ | April 26, 2000 | Carlyle Murphy

[Wrigley]

Sure, why not, show your cards.

[SMEDLEYBUTLER]

The Saints in heaven that died IN Christ are dead..

They are physically dead

That's not what you initially wrote. You need to be more explicit if you're going to jump in the ring.

and it is silent on what happened to them

But you said definitively that they are dead. You keep contradicting yourself. There is only one physical death. Where are those who arose after the Resurrection? Elijah and Enoch were taken to heaven without first dying. Are they now dead in heaven?

It was a "vision" and At no point were they told or allowed to interact with them and then they were advised to tell no one.

Incorrect. They were told to tell no one "till the Son of man be risen from the dead."

but once again that does not meant that we are to pray to the dead..

Again I ask provide me a Scriptural passage that states that those in heaven are dead?

The church means the called out ones..and one day we will all be together ..but once again that does not meant that we are to pray to the dead..

That's either overly optimistic on your part or typically ambiguous. You know the difference between death of the body and the spirit so stop the little game. Those in heaven are not dead.

Are the Dead saints omnipresent? What do you see them doing all day?

What do you see God doing all day?

[CCWoody]

So,what you really want is Scripture to back up the RC claim that "Prayer to dead Saints... is Scriptural?"

The statement has been made: "Prayer to the Saints... is Scriptural." I'm simply waiting for a single RC to actually lay out the argument for me from the Scripture. Unfortunately, as the RC have absolutely no authority to intrepret Scripture, I fear that I am just wasting my breath. Until one comes along who does have authority, I would probably be better served by watching the clouds.

Clearly, then, intercessory prayers offered by Christians on behalf of others something "good and pleasing to God," not something infringing on Christ’s role as mediator.

Of course, I'm not even asserting that prayer for the saints is not Scriptural. It is "Prayer to the Saints..." that I am asking for Scriptural proof. Your verse does not even address the question. Try again!

2. The Bible directs us to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray with us. Thus in Psalms 103, we pray, "Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!" (Ps. 103:20-21). And in Psalms 148 we pray, "Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!" (Ps. 148:1-2).

No, the Bible directly and plainly says "BLESS THE LORD." It does not say pray to others to bless the LORD. Your first scripture says exactly for US to speak well of the LORD. Are you too lazy that you now must have somebody stand in proxy for you to do it?

Your second verse is the same way. It says for you to "Praise the LORD." It does not say pray to somebody else to praise the LORD. Are you too lazy that you now must have somebody stand in proxy for you to do it?

Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation, we read: "[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the rayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God"(Rev. 8:3-4).

No, this verse does not say that the saints in heaven pray for us. This verse says that an angel carrys the prayers of all the saints before the throne. Too bad you don't believe that your prayers are a sweet savor to the Father. If only you prayed to Him as the Bible specifically commands that you do.

Too bad you don't believe that you have direct access to the Most Holy Place. It also seems as if you believe that you are not a saint, don't do his will, aren't one of his ministers, aren't part of his host, etc. Obviously, you don't believe that you can either Praise the Lord or speak well of the Lord.

BTW, a few Psalms back does your Bible have this:

• Psalm 145:20 The Lord preserves all who love Him, but all the wicked He will destroy. My mouth shall speak the praise of the Lord, and all flesh shall bless His holy name forever and ever.

[RnMomof7]

Codie they are physically dead..God may communicate with whom He pleases as He is a spirit..we are forbidden to communicate with the dead..
Codie man was not allowed to eat from the tree of life

The lie of Satan was ye surely shall not die

The wages of sin is death

"There shall not be found among you... an enchanter, or a witch, or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer," (Deut. 18:10-11).





Can the dead hear you?


Ecclesiastes 9:

5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

Job 14:

21 His sons come to honour, and he knoweth it not; and they are brought low, but he perceiveth it not of them.

Job 7:

9 As the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more.

10 He shall return no more to his house, neither shall his place know him any more.

Ecclesiastes 3:

22 Wherefore I perceive that there is nothing better, than that a man should rejoice in his own works; for that is his portion: for who shall bring him to see what shall be after him?

Psalms 146:

4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Isaiah 26:

26: 14 They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.

Psalms 88:

12 Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? and thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?

Psalms 78:

39 For he remembered that they were but flesh; a wind that passeth away, and cometh not again.

3. Are The Dead Aware Of Anything In Hell?

Job 3:

17 There the wicked cease from troubling; and there the weary be at rest.

Psalms 13:

3 Consider and hear me, O Lord my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;

2 Peter 2:

9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

Job 21:

29 Have ye not asked them that go by the way? and do ye not know their tokens,

30 That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath.

Matthew 25:

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

2 Timothy:

1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

John 12:

8 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.


Codie why pray to the dead when we are told "...All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth." Matthew 28:18

And we are told there is only one mediator between God and man

Are the saints omnipresent?

[RnMomof7]

It was a "vision" and At no point were they told or allowed to interact with them and then they were advised to tell no one.

Incorrect. They were told to tell no one "till the Son of man be risen from the dead."

Which they did as a testimony in the gospel...so???

[Codie]

God is the God of the living and the dead

Scripture please.

[RnMomof7]

What do you see God doing all day?

Irrevelant

You can not answer the question huh? What do you see the saints doing all day? Are they omnipresent?

[JesseShurun]

Its laughable to claim that the Holy Spirit guided you to interpret scripture correctly. Laughable.

Now you are calling Jesus a liar.

John 16:13

I know you don't have the bible so here is what it says:

...when he, the Spirit of Truth is come, he will guide you into all truth, for he shall not speak of himself, but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak and he will show you things to come.

[RnMomof7]

Phl 2:10   That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth;

Rom 14:11 For it is written, [As] I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

  Rev 5:14   And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four [and] twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

[JesseShurun]

The Holy Spirit points to Jesus and speaks of Him.

Jesus is the living Word of God.

So just Who and What does the HS illuminate?

"Ignorance of the Scriptures is ignorance of Christ.” Jerome, c. 347-420

[drstevej]

I not only agree with that quote, I also agree with...

Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. All that came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. I am the door; by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and go out, and shall find pasture.

I also agree with...

I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit: for apart from me ye can do nothing.

[CCWoody]

• Acts 1:3 He presented Himself alive after His suffering by many infallible proofs, being seen by them during forty days and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God.

Yes, CC. What were those things Christ spoke of and where are they discussed in the Bible? What if Christ and/or the Apostles chose/were told to hand down those things by word instead and not by writing them down?

Notice this passage in the Bible: "And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself." (Luke 24:27) Those things are all the things which were already in the Bible at that time (The Law, the Prophets, the Psalms) which Jesus explained about Himself. These are the same things which the Apostles used in the Apostolic preaching of the kingdom of God.

• Acts 28:23 He [paul] explained and solemnly testified of the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus from both the Law and the Prophets,....

It does seem entirely to be expected that if Jesus explained of Himself and the kingdom of God from the Law and the Prophets and Paul is able to preach the kingdom of God from the Law and the Prophets that I should be able to as well. Plus, as the kingdom of God is the gospel...

• Mark 1:14-15 Jesus came to Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, and saying, "The time is fulfilled and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent and believe in the gospel."

And as I have in my Bible the Law and the Prophets plus the gospel accounts, where is this "extra" stuff about the kingdom of God that is not in my Bible? And how come my Bible does say that the kingdom of God is preached from the Law and the Prophets and the Psalms (Acts 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, 8, 9, etc.) and never from this mysterious gospel?

And what are the features of this other gospel, which is evidently another gospel that these Apostles are suppose to have preached? Gosh, they themselves even declare: "if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.

• Acts 28:23 He [paul] explained and solemnly testified of the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus from both the Law and the Prophets,....

However I think even the Catholics are allowed some degree of private communion with Our Lord.

You know, this is a sad thing to admit that you have to be permitted to have private communion with the Lord.

[JMJ333]

This is the way it always ends up when debating certain posters on this forum. I made my case on this thread not only for intercession, and even clearing up the meaning of the word by using websters dictionary to define it, but also the reason why ccwoody or any of the other calvinists on this thread have no authority to tell anyone how to interpret scripture. They have no council to look to for inspired work. They lack any authority to turn to for guidance on theological issues. Everything is private interpretation. Not only is it strange that they deem to tell me how to interpret scripture in regard to saints and intercession, its strange that they have the nerve to even pose it as a credible argument. So...I'm done on this thread.

Thanks for that post and link. Very informative. Regards.

[Codie]

You've murder another thread.

[Matchett-PI]

"Actually it came from anti-papal bullus shittus adherents."

You mean the ones who are actively objecting to the worship of some man in Italy by the name of "holy father number 2"???

[drstevej]

***Great news! You have converted. Welcome to the Holy Mother Church!***

I am converted yes, and Jesus is my Good Shepherd.

Rome isn't my home, although I did visit there in 1974. The Pope does, I admit, have a palacial home. A three par golf course on the lawn would be a great addition.

[drstevej]

***I'm sure it beats Billy Graham's crib.***

I'm sure that's so.

[Aliska]

Allow me to translate. I was referring to hatemongering anti-catholics.

Prayer: St. Thomas a Beckett, will no one rid us of these nuisances?