Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

A Defense of the Ecumenical Gathering at Assisi (Ecumenism in St. Thomas Aquinas)
Biblical Evidence for Catholicism ^ | uncertain | Fr. Moriselli

Posted on 08/25/2002 8:41:48 PM PDT by petrusv2

A Defense of the Ecumenical Gathering at Assisi

( Ecumenism in St. Thomas Aquinas)

Fr. Alfredo M. Morselli

The meeting in Assisi (27 October 1986) is a very complex issue: there are a lot of issues here, and it is necessary to study all of them and - above all - [to] make the proper distinctions. In my mail I intended only to give a moral evaluation of the act itself and show that it was morally unexceptionable. Initially we must ask ourselves: "Did the pope sin in the Assisi meeting?" John Paul II theorized also, in his speeches, theological justifications of this act. We must ask ourselves "Are these justifications correct or heretical?"

After this we must pose to ourselves a second kind of question: "Was this act advisable or did this act create scandal and disadvantages which were more numerous than advantages?" And then we can examinate correlated facts, such as the statue of Buddha placed on top of the tabernacle. "What is the value of prayers of infidels?," etc. Every man must be religious, by natural law; if the prayers of infidels are always a sin, we would have a contradiction between natural law and positive divine law; but we cannot admit this.

A third kind of question would be: "Is there a difference between John Paul II's theology and that of many progressist theologians, who teach all religions are equivalent." A study of this kind reveals gigantic differences! Why, among principal progressive theologians (Rahner, Kung, feminist theology, etc), nobody aplauded this act?

Another important question: "Is John Paul II's teaching contradictory to the teaching of other popes"? Before trying to answer to this question, let's ask ourselves: "How many people read a large part of the magisterium about this issue; is it sufficent to read two or three encyclicals to judge living papal teaching? How many Catholics know or have read papal speeches about Assisi?

So, let's go step by step, with great patience. I'm only a poor parish priest of a mountain village that tries to give answers. There is an Italian proverb that says; "when there are not horses, donkeys run." We must look for traditional answers merging the teaching of John Paul II, the teaching of previous popes, and the teaching of Scholastic theologians about the salvation of unbelievers.

It's a work of pioneers, which will be useful if we will make our way with great humility, patience and great love for the pope. I ask myself: Before thinking that the pope has "false and erronous ideas and practices," isn't it necessary that I try to make any effort to understand His acts? Between the pope and myself, who has more probability to blunder? Have I well understood what the pope did, what he said, the remote context of his affirmations? Have I looked for a solution in texts by approved scholars? Am I sure my opinion is a definitive verdict about the Holy Father?

Another priest wrote:

Somebody posed me the objection of scandal or correct understanding of Assisi; we can talk about this aspect of the issue after we bring to an end the question of the act itself. We may debate the consequences of the act after full examination of the act itself. Nevertheless, I will try to answer every question list members pose to me.

We have here a shifting of accent: we have to distinguish between the act itself fulfilled by the pope (staying together to pray) and the organization of the meeting. Nevertheless the pope has some responsibility for this organization: is it a sin to invite unbelievers to pray? To answer to this question, we must ask ourselves: "must an unbeliever pray?"

I call up here a dinstinction by St.Thomas:

The fact that "unbelief by way of pure negation" is not a sin, is not only a Thomist concept, but it's also a verity of faith: St. Pius V condemned the proposition "Infidelitas pure negativa in his quibus Christus non est predicatus peccatum est" (D +1068) (=Purely negative unbelief, in those whom Christ was not preached to, is a sin).

A great Thomist theologian , De Victoria, specified also the degree of necessary predication, in order that negative unbelief become positive: it's necessary for not only a simple presentation of faith, but a presentation including all necessary motives of credibility. In fact St. Thomas teaches that "Nobody would believe if he doesn't see he must believe" (non enim crederet nisi videret ea esse credenda - S.Th., II II, q. 1, a. 4 ad 2). Only God knows the degree of innocence or culpability in the heart of unbelievers.

So we can pose a more definite question: must an unbeliever (an unbeliever by way of pure negation) pray? I think the answer is "yes," because, according to St. Thomas's teaching, we know that religion is a part of Justice, and Justice is an obligation by natural law. Every man must be religious, because every man must be upright (iustus). Prayer is an act of religion (not an act of faith), so every man must pray. So we must say to an unbeliever: follow natural law; you must be prudent, temperant, strong, upright.

St. Thomas says:

How is it possible that God orders man to be religious, knowing that men (today the majority of humankind), although unbelivers "by way of pure negation," performing this precept, will sin? If an unbeliever doesn't pray, he sins (against natural law). If an unbeliver prays, he sins, beacuse He doesn't pray to the true God. This would be a trap!

Therefore, I conclude that invitation to unbelievers to pray, is not a formal participation in an act of false religion, but is a formal invitation to be religious, to follow natural law. The pope doesn't says: "Pray to a false God," but "Pray [as best you can]." Everything false in such act of religion, becomes an "indirect voluntary" (as the death of a child in case of removal of a cancerous uterus).

But now there are some new questions: Why must man be religious if he cannot know true religion? May an act of religion be specified by a false material object (as the one of false religion)? According to St. Thomas, the exercise of religion by an unbeliever may be a sort of natural preparation to receive grace: In IV Sent., II, d. 28 q. 1, a. 4 ad 4:

S. Th., I II, 109 6 c

So the prayer of an unbeliever "by way of pure negation", even though materially false, is a fulfilment of natural law given by God Himself- a preparation to Grace.

I say with St Paul:"...I will not even be the judge of my own self. It is true that my conscience does not reproach me, but that is not enough to justify me: it is the Lord who is my judge" (1 Cor. 4:3-4). I dont' know; nobody cannot know the degree of innocence of unbelievers. But in a missionary approach, it is natural to suppose the good faith of our interlocutor. Nobody knows our true disposition, not even we ourselves (with absolute certainty); so, nobody will begin a missionary dialogue with an unbeliver saying: "Dear sir, I don't know your degree of innocence; maybe my effort is vain because you are not an unbeliever by way of negation: so you will go to hell; but, in case you are an unbeliever by way of negation, in this case we will accomplish something positive."

None among traditional missionaries begins his speech in a such manner. All missionary speeches hope for the good faith of the interlocutor. The fact that a missionary knows that not all men are good, doesn't exempt him from trying to convert, step by step, all men. And the first step of conversion is the observance of natural law. In addition, although we know not all men are in good faith, we don't know which are good or bad people. I didn't say "in Assisi all people were good," but rather, "it was allowable to invite all men to pray, hoping they were in good faith."

We must distinguish the virtue of religion before and after original sin. If Adam hadn't sinned, what an easy issue the demonstration of the existence of God would have been! But after original sin, as Vatican I teaches, a clear concept of God is very difficult, and we have the moral necessity of revelation also for verities that are recognizable, themselves, by natural reason. The most intelligent -perhaps- of pagan people, Aristotle, conceived an idea of God that is not true. (Hegel is more Aristotelian than St. Thomas: our St Thomas has substantially changed Aristotle's concept of God). I don't believe particular judgment will be an "examination of methaphysics": nevertheless what St Paul writes is true and it must be well understood.

Here it is opportune to examine the "Unknown God" of Acts 17:23:

What is the history of this cult to the "Unknown God"?: St. John Chrysostom tells us the story, when the Athenians send Philippides to ask help for Sparta, in his travel he had a spectral vision of a mysterious personage, who said to him: "Why don't you worship me? I will help you." Hence the worship to an "Unknown God." But the great Card. Baronius gives another explication, which is not irreconciliable with the previous one. Athenians were understanding that was impossible to attribute to their gods the peculiarities of the idea of "to be" (esse): the natural, implicit, perception of vanity of idols let them think of a quite different god, whose attributes were not yet definite. It's reasonable that people who enunciated such sophisticated concepts of "to be" (esse), were dissatisfied with idols. So the "Unknown God" was the object of this interior query of a true God, "unknown" because "not yet known."

All these premises indicate that many idolatrous cults of antiquity (as some contemporaneous people) were not formally idolatrous, because there was not formal attribution of divine attributes to idols (such as eternity, first principle, plenitude of being, etc.). What I wrote is not only an hypothis, but a scientific statement of the Ethnologic School of History of Religions. The great Wilhem Schmidt, author of the monumental work Ursprung der Gottesidee (Origin of the Idea of God) shows that a lot of people and primitive religions, - even though they had worship that, at first glance, we could define as idolatrous-, all these people believed in a one principal God, and only this god had attributes such as eternity, universal causality, infinity, providence etc.

In the case of unbelievers by way of negation, this idolatry can be reduced to a (at least sometimes) not culpable "vain observance" or to a vain observance that is not irreconcilable with natural law. Implicit faith is impossible within the context of formal idolatry; but I think it's very difficult to find truly formal idolatry because it's difficult, after original sin, conceiving the idea of God that must attributed to idols to be idolatrous in the proper sense.

Let's imagine asking a primitive biblical Canaanite; "which idea of God are you attributing to your idols?" What could he answer? Could he answer "ipsum esse subsistens," "esse per se et non per partecipationem"? (I don't want to say that there were not also truly pagan gnostic mythologies). We can understand biblical maledictions against idolatry, to preserve true religion among Jews. But we must believe that God also loves the Canaanites and othersunbelievers and that he also offered salvation to them.

There were no Satanists at Assisi. Obviously the acts of natural religon that can prepare for grace must be compatible with all natural law; so we must exclude sexual or magic practices etc. But in Assisi the issue was the prayer.

If someone ascribes to "The Blue Elephant" authentic divine preogatives, it's impossible for them to have implicit faith. If someone doesn't ascribe to "The Blue Elephant" authentic divine prerogatives, and someone understands he must be religious, and there is also the perception of the necessity of existence of a God quite different, it's possible this can be, "per accidens" a preparation to grace. We can extend here the principle of "erroneous conscience in invincible manner."

We don't forget that God doesn't give impossible orders. If natural law orders man to be religious, we have two solutions.

But we cannot admit B.

We must not forget also that God dispenses his grace to this concrete man after original sin: and God knows the difficulties of building a natural theology.

The invitation for Assisi was an invitation to do "as much as anyone can", as St. Thomas wrote "quod in se est facit," preparing oneself in this manner to receiving grace. And this invitation is possible, without betting one dollar on the good faith of participants at the meeting.

May we assume a good act of religion expressing veneration to false gods?

Let's consider Cornelius the centurion:

I don't want suggest solutions "sola scriptura"!:-)) But, as an alternative, I would like to survey how medieval theologians - especially our St.Thomas - considered the prayer of a pagan man before his conversion.

Certainly his prayer - before conversion - was not the right worship at all; Cornelius' religion was not "THE true religion." But, nevertheless, this prayer was accepted by God. And why were Cornelius' prayers "accepted by God"? Because - St. Thomas says, he had "implicit faith." Well, we find ourselves in front of a prayer of a pagan, who had "implicit faith." Let's note that this is a prayer after the coming of Jesus Christ.

We find ourselves, about this issue, between two great theological errors: the necessity of faith to be absolutely explicit: in this perspective (Jansenist et al), man would have to have explicit cognition of all the verities of faith to be saved - and, on the other side, a faith as an a priori act; in this perspective, any worship of any undefinite god - regardless of the content of this act - would be sufficient to make every man a Christian. This is - substantially and in the broadest sense - the Anonymous Christian Theory, at least as this theory is vulgarized.

But now, let's return to the heart of the issue:

The prayer of Cornelius was a false worship, but it has been made a good prayer by faith; an implicit faith:

S Th. II II q. 10 a. 4 ad 3 (in some editions ad 4)

But may we compare Cornelius, who was very near to true religion, with a Hindu or an animist, very far from Truth? Yes, we may! Let's hear St. Thomas:

in IV Sent, III d. 25 q. 2 a. 2

Why may St.Thomas say that? Because, formally, the one who doesn't acknowledege even one article of faith, sins aginst all faith! Here nothing is more true than James 2:10: "You see, anyone who keeps the whole of the Law but trips up on a single point, is still guilty of breaking it all." We cannot judge an unbeliever by way of pure negation looking at how much he believes absolutely - because only a little less would be a sin against faith; "one more one less" destroys faith; the criterion must be quite different: We must look at the disposition of the subject and how much is explicit Truth that God revealed to him. The whole - we may take as point of reference - is not the whole faith itself, but the the faith as much as it is revealed to the particular unbeliever.

Before we advance in our study, here is another important quotation that shows that the degree of explicit faith may be very small and quite sufficient for salvation.

II II ,a. 2 q. 7 ad 3.

Title of the question: "Whether it is necessary for the salvation of all, that they should believe explicitly in the mystery of Christ?"

Some pagan people got salvation,

Conclusion: It's possible that worship by an unbeliever (by way of pure negatin) can be accepted by God. It's the implicit faith, the supernatural grace, which makes this act acceptable. The natural obligation to be religious doesn't trap the unbeliever so that "he must sin by natural law": the unbeliever finds the divine rescue: the gift of implicit faith. The implicit faith may be, materially, very poor.

We must now ask ourselves, "What exactly is implicit faith?"

II II ,a. 2 q. 7 ad 3.

St. Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274) Summa Theologica Second Part of the Second Part Question 5 Article 3:

{Translated by the Fathers of the English Dominican Province. Copyright © 1947 Benzinger Brothers Inc., Hypertext Version Copyright © 1995, 1996 New Advent Inc.}

There is a witty Italian witty proverb that says: "Did you want the bike? Now pedal!" You posed me a lot of questions about Assisi, and now endure my answers! :-)) Well, where did we leave off?

We have now to deal bravely with a decisive issue, because HERE is the difference between Assisi and modernism, false ecumenism, panchristianism etc.

The issue is about the contents of implicit faith: any faith, more or less explicit, must have contents - more exactly, supernatural revealed contents -, otherwise it would not be faith, but human thought. According to modernists, religion is the emerging of religious feelings: for modernists, the content of this feeling is not important: a good existential outcome of this religious sentiment is sufficient. So they reason: "Are you contented or satisfied to be a Buddhist or to practice Your homemade religion? Let this sentiment emerge! If you let your religious sentiment emerge, you are a Christian, even though you are not conscious of being a Christian."

What is the difference between implicit faith, as we have learned by St.Thomas, and this modernist conception? The differences concern dispositions of the subject, and the object itself. Man knows, by natural reason, that he must pursue his utimate end; man knows this end is good, lovely; so he desires to pursue his ultimate end. Grace manages to get into this natural desire, and so this natural desire becomes supernatural; this is the psychological beginning of the act of faith. There are already important differences between the Catholic and modernist conceptions of faith.

God himself reveals the means of act of faith, the objective contents, even though this knowledge may be not completely explicit. Gods acts in two manners:

1) with his natural providence; an unbeliever can admire the creation (Rom. 1:20: ever since the creation of the world, the invisible existence of God and his everlasting power have been clearly seen by the mind's understanding of created things) and believe (but he may also not believe); or God sends a missionary to the unbeliever.

2) with an immediate supernatural inspiration: we can read the autobiography of some convert, and admire their reflections. But we cannot exclude mysterious inspirations in the hearts of a lot of umbelievers: may we think that a poor primitive in Amazonia or in Asia is forgotten by God?

In both cases, a truth, a content, a supernatural - implicit or explicit - revelation, is proposed to man. A good will wants, "chooses," all these means God revealed to her.

St. Thomas says, about such unbelievers -a man that doesn't believe by way of pure negation, as Cornelius, but adheres to everything God reveals to him, that "he does as much he can (quod in se est facit) - he is not, formally, an unbeliver - he has implicit faith."

In, this sense we may better understand the word by Fr. Garrigou Lagrange: "Formally are more far from true religion people who deviated preserving many dogmas than people who tend to Catholicism embracing few verities."

A primitive man in the jungle, who "does as much he can", has more faith than a dissident theologian! And we have the same faith of the primitive man - in this sense we believe in the same God -, but we have not the same faith of a dissident theologian, and we don't believe in the same God as the dissident theologian, even though he can understand trinitarian procession better than us. We can so understand what St. Paul says in Acts 17:23 "...the unknown God you revere is the one I proclaim to you." In another sense, we have not the same God of the primitive, but we have the same God of the dissident theologian (from a merely material point of view). In this last sense is true that gods of pagan people are devils.

We can understand also why Pope St. Pius X says, in Pascendi, that modernism is the enemy not only of the Catholic religion, but of all religions: because the act of religion, the act that could precede a conversion, is basically undermined. So Fr. Cornelius a Lapide says that in the last days, the Antichrist will fight against all religion!

I tried only to begin to study the facts of Assisi: you didn't read the complete argumentation which would be necessary, but only few e-mails by a mountain priest. I believe I have shown that Assisi is not only a question of ecumenism, but that a lot of issues are implied. We cannot have an unconscious tour d'esprit: "Mortalium Animos didn't provide for Assisi, so Assisi is an heinous fact." There are some new facts that are not in pre-concilar handbooks; and we must be able to evaluate them in a serene manner. The battle for traditional liturgy, for Catholic Tradition et al, expects "new wine in fresh skins" (Luke 5:38).

And what must we say about ecumenism? I confess that when I hear this word, my hair stands on end! :-)) But let's forget for a moment this word. Must we try any effort in order that unbelievers convert themselves! Yes, we must. May we compel the act of faith? No, we may not. May we try to persuade and convince them with arguments? Yes! And how do we begin this persuasion? "Hi Protestant; your mother was not an honest woman! Convert yourself, otherwise hell will gulp you down," or trying to not "break the crushed reed or snuff the faltering wick" (Is. 42:3)? Trying to not break the crushed reed or snuff the faltering wick . . . And is this a missionary action? Yes, it's a missionary action. And must we be missionaries? Yes, we must. Is the term ecumenism abused and used to pass the worse foul errors? Yes, but we must be missionaries even though the term is abused.

Main Index & Search / Traditionalist Page / Orthodoxy and Ecumenism Index / St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas

Edited by Dave Armstrong, from forwarded e-mail letters: 1 August 1999.


TOPICS: General Discusssion
KEYWORDS: assisi; interfaithprayer
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-2021-37 last
To: Polycarp
I hav'nt had chance to see that refutation - could you be so good as to direct me to the relevant post?

Thanks

T
21 posted on 08/26/2002 6:27:53 PM PDT by Tantumergo
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: Tantumergo
I can't recall now where I posted it, or where I found this explanation, but I'll re-post it here:

Regarding the Assissi event, the Buddha statue and the Tabernacle:

Buddhists were allowed to use a church for prayer (an imprudent decision IMHO!!!). As is their custom, they placed a small statue of Buddha in a prominent place. The most prominent place was the tabernacle. They may have even believed it was for such a purpose. As soon as Catholic hosts (NOT the Holy Father himself) discovered the gaffe, they explained to the Buddhists that this was offensive. The Buddhists gladly moved the statue.

So a minor mistake has somehow been ginned up into the Pope's desecration of the Eucharist.

Pathetic.

The Holy Father did not even know about the incident at the time.

Those who make these types of assertions cannot be trusted in any other claims.

22 posted on 08/26/2002 7:06:52 PM PDT by Polycarp
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

Comment #23 Removed by Moderator

Comment #24 Removed by Moderator

To: petrusv2
Thank you for both articles.
25 posted on 08/26/2002 7:20:20 PM PDT by Salvation
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: sinkspur
"We look, then drive on." --Sinkpur.
Try looking and thinking. The wreckage is not the posting, it's the Pope's flagrant violations of the first commandment.
26 posted on 08/26/2002 7:23:44 PM PDT by ultima ratio
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: HDMZ
We're definitely not going to believe you. Why don't you just go away. We get tired of seeing your old pictures every day.

May God forgive you.

27 posted on 08/26/2002 7:24:35 PM PDT by Salvation
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: petrusv2
It's amusing to watch conciliar Catholics struggling to justify what can't be justified. This is novel papal behavior, unprotected by the Holy Spirit, and way out of line.
28 posted on 08/26/2002 7:42:31 PM PDT by ultima ratio
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: Polycarp
Thanks for your info.

"So a minor mistake has somehow been ginned up into the Pope's desecration of the Eucharist."

I wish these people would give the Pope a break - they want him to be impeccable and infallible from the moment he wakes up each day to the moment he goes to sleep. As if he didn't have enough pressure already! Even if the Pope had given personal permission for this to happen, it would only amount to poor judgement - not heresy or apostasy.

It seems to me that both extreme traditionalists and extreme conservatives tend to feed off the same error:

the extreme traditionalist thinks that the authorities in the Church should never make human mistakes, so evidence of misjudgement, imprudence etc. is seen as evidence of heresy and apostasy.

the extreme conservative thinks that the authorities in the Church can never make human mistakes of misjudgement, imprudence etc. so everything they do/say must be followed to the letter and anyone who questions this is a heretic and apostate.

IMHO both views lead to a lot of unnecessary heat and polemic, even though both spring from worthy motivations.
29 posted on 08/27/2002 3:12:06 AM PDT by Tantumergo
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: Polycarp
Those who make these types of assertions cannot be trusted in any other claims.

<> Amen. Of course, that will not stop them. They have no shame. They will continually repost the same lies and fabrications even after those lies and fabrications have been repeatedly knocked-down.

That is just another indication of what happens to those in the fevered swamps of schism. They get so turned around in there that they become hopelessly lost and confused. Their only hope is to STOP where they are and pray for Divine guidance out of that swamp, or, they may be lost forever

30 posted on 08/27/2002 5:47:17 AM PDT by Catholicguy
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: Tantumergo
And where does one find that peaceful middle ground between extreme traditionalist and "extreme" conservative? I like to think that is what I'm trying to do, but I doubt I'm having much real success at it here.
31 posted on 08/27/2002 11:43:08 AM PDT by Polycarp
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

To: Catholicguy
that will not stop them. They have no shame. They will continually repost the same lies and fabrications even after those lies and fabrications have been repeatedly knocked-down

Then I guess we cannot rest, huh?

32 posted on 08/27/2002 11:44:29 AM PDT by Polycarp
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]

To: Polycarp
"And where does one find that peaceful middle ground between extreme traditionalist and "extreme" conservative? I like to think that is what I'm trying to do, but I doubt I'm having much real success at it here."

You seem to be having more success than most - you are prepared to defend the Holy Father against wild accusation, but at the same time you have been honest about the things that give you and many of us just concern.

I don't think the "middle ground" is necessarily peaceful or easy. GK Chesterton described orthodoxy as walking a tightrope without a safety harness (hopelessly inept paraphrase on my part) and that this is the truly radical untried path in the life of the Church. It is always easier to veer off to the right or to the left than to follow the hard and narrow way.
33 posted on 08/27/2002 12:00:04 PM PDT by Tantumergo
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: Tantumergo
this is the truly radical untried path in the life of the Church

Amen. Thank you for your insights.

34 posted on 08/27/2002 4:41:20 PM PDT by Polycarp
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: Tantumergo
"I don't think the "middle ground" is necessarily peaceful or easy. GK Chesterton described orthodoxy as walking a tightrope without a safety harness (hopelessly inept paraphrase on my part) and that this is the truly radical untried path in the life of the Church. It is always easier to veer off to the right or to the left than to follow the hard and narrow way."

Thank you! This is very inspirational and thought provoking. And wise.

35 posted on 08/28/2002 8:02:56 PM PDT by american colleen
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: Polycarp
I very rarely engage in personal insult on this forum.

Oh, please! What an incredibly blatant lie!!!

36 posted on 09/01/2002 3:50:16 PM PDT by Right To Life
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: Right To Life; Admin Moderator
Who the heck are you and why are you harassing me here on multiple threads??? I've been away camping for the last 4 days, only to return to find this crap from you. Bug off.
37 posted on 09/02/2002 2:57:02 PM PDT by Polycarp
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 36 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-2021-37 last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson