God failed?

[A.J.Armitage]

I went down to Boystown earlier today.

We were planning to go somewhere else, but we spent so much time getting sushi it was too late, so we went to The Alley instead. The Alley is, as the first line indicates, in Boystown, which is the Chicago gay district. There was parking in The Alley's alley, so we entered via the back door past stacks of free publications (gay and alternative newspapers and old copies of the Onion). The Alley is... different. It's basically a kind of all purpose store for punks, goths, and other people who're unique, just like everyone else they hang out with. It's got odd decorations, clothes, and so on.

One of the T-shirts had a picture of Anton LeVay, with the motto: GOD FAILED.

The shirt wasn't very unusual there; a large proportion of them were blasphemous. But that shirt, I think, is interesting. (Hence this post.)

I'd bet the person who made it never has never encountered anything other than Arminianism. And viewing things from the perspective of the Arminian construct, what other conclusion could there be?

In Arminianism, God had everything great until, whoops, the top angel started getting uppity and started a civil war in Heaven, which, presumably, God didn't want.

So then God creates two perfect people, but can't stop them from being corrupted by the former top angel. So, in spite of the fact that God doesn't want this to be the case, all their decendents turn out bad.

So in a last ditch effort, God personally becomes one and dies to save them all. But He doesn't save them all. He can't even manage to save most of them. His death was mostly just wasted. At the end, He'll be FORCED to throw them in the lake of fire. Assuming, of course, that Someone with His track record can manage to pull off something like making it all happen like it says in the book.

If you believe all that, how could God not be called a failure? If Arminianism is true, God's existence is one of constant frustration. Failure after failure after failure.

That's not my God, and it isn't the God of the Bible.

[A.J.Armitage]

do all have the ability to return, and some will not?

I don't want to sound Clintonian, but it depends on what you mean by "ability". The ability that's lacking is the psychological ability. That is, they could, but for the fact that they absolutely do not want to and could never bring themselves to. An anology (except for the fact that this is a sin) would be the fact that just about everyone could commit murder, but most don't have the ability to actually do it. This inability isn't just reprobates, it's everyone. It's external grace, not anything in a person's nature (whether from his own efforts or from something hard-wired to begin with) that causes the change.

[ponyespresso]

It is, however, the necessary conclusion of Arminianism.

What, then, is the "necessary conclusion" of Calvinism? I think it would be that we are all just puppets in God's little theater, with God up there pulling the strings and us having no say in the script. Which is espically frustrating when you know that, because God/Puppetmaster chooses a few special puppets before the show even starts, these certain puppets can flub their lines as much as they want and still make it to the aftershow party.

Well, if I have to choose between a God who is a failure, but at least shows His love to his creation by trying to help (as you put it, and for the record you are wrong, but here we are), or a God who is just a big, bullying puppetmaster, I'll take the God who is a failure every time.

My own father failed at a lot of things, but I always knew he loved me. And, because of that, I love him. I'll take that over anything, anyday.

[Pistias]

external grace, not anything in a person's nature (whether from his own efforts or from something hard-wired to begin with)...causes the change.

Then God does create some beings He plans to simply destroy, no? He creates them without the psychological capacity to resist sin, and does not supply the Grace necessary to save them; thus, He creates them to consign them to eternal torment.

[A.J.Armitage]

I think it would be that we are all just puppets in God's little theater, with God up there pulling the strings and us having no say in the script.

Except that we do have a say in the "script" most of the time. It's only when we don't that things go right.

[A.J.Armitage]

Then God does create some beings He plans to simply destroy, no?

Yes.

He creates them without the psychological capacity to resist sin

Not quite. It's not that God decides in each individual case to make each person unable to resist sin. It's hereditary. When Adam fell, he took all his male-line decendants with him.

[ponyespresso]

Actually, I have a story that I use about God's failures.

For the 1998 World Cup, England's coach Glenn Hoddle hired, among all the other requisite physical therapists and doctors that most professional sports teams have, a spiritual healer. She was quite a sensation (I was living in Scotland at the time, so I was pretty close to the action). She made the media rounds before the games and I will never forget an interview I saw with her.

The interviewer started with the comment, "Now, when you heal someone..." To which she sort of got wide eyed and interrupted the interviewer, "No, actually, it's not me. It's God who heals people, I am just a conduit (or some such). God heals through me, it is not I who heals, but God."

Well, the interviewer paused, thought about the woman’s' comments and formed his next question:

"So, what's God's success rate?"

I use this as a starting off point when I talk to some people about God. I ask them what they think God's success rate is. Most of them, like you Armitage, believe it is not very good; poor even. Wars, famine, murder, drugs, Arminianism, take your pick, but the very existence of these suggest that God is asleep at the wheel, or, maybe, God isn't really as omnipotent/omniciant/omniwhatever as He would like us to believe. It's an interesting idea. But wrong.

See, the thing about God is this. He's God. And God is completely, utterly, other than us. Think about it. God spoke, and the universe was created. I don't know about you, but when I speak, I'm lucky if a pot of coffee get's made. But not God. He spoke and light was separated from darkness, earth was created and after six days, God saw what He had done. And you know what He thought? He like it. A lot. Does this sound like a God of failure? The fact that man’s free will was woven into the fabric of creation is not a testament to God’s failure, but the cornerstone of His majesty.

And when the time came for the way of salvation to come into the world, did God fail then? Absolutely not. To whoever knocks, regardless of race, colour, status, gender, or education, the door will be opened. Whoever confesses with their mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believes in their heart that God raised Him from the dead, they will be saved. (Romans 10:9) It is not God’s will for any to perish; He wants all to come and know Him (2 Peter 3:9). And, I believe, at the time of the Resurrection, God will not say to those who were never told about Christ, “Why didn’t you know”. He will instead, say to His church, “Why didn’t you tell them?”

God’s success rate is 100%. If there are failures, they are upon our heads, not God’s.

[Pistias]

And then He offers some the Grace to remedy that hereditary curse.

So He'll fudge the rules for some, and not others? I can't help but find that--not arbitrary, for if anything has a reason, God does--but simply cruel. Or is it that He offers Grace to all, but some refuse it, and He allows them to do so?

[Hank Kerchief]

Interesting. You're trying to refute what I said.

I wasn't trying to refute, as you will notice, I asked a question. I was trying to determine your interpretation.

Interesting that so many say, "you have to believe what God says," then quote a verse out of context and tell you what it means. What they really mean is "you have to believe what I tell you God says," but you don't!

Hank

[A.J.Armitage]

Most of them, like you Armitage, believe it is not very good; poor even.

Either you've misunderstood what I'm saying, or you're simply a liar.

God does not fail. Everything He wills happens.

Everyone He died for is saved.

Wars, famine, murder, drugs, Arminianism, take your pick, but the very existence of these suggest that God is asleep at the wheel, or, maybe, God isn't really as omnipotent/omniciant/omniwhatever as He would like us to believe.

Or He let them happened. Or caused them to happen.

See, the thing about God is this. He's God.

Ding ding ding. Give the man a prize.

The fact that man’s free will was woven into the fabric of creation is not a testament to God’s failure, but the cornerstone of His majesty.

Scripture please.

[A.J.Armitage]

And then He offers some the Grace to remedy that hereditary curse.

He gives some grace, whether they want it or not.

So He'll fudge the rules for some, and not others? I can't help but find that--not arbitrary, for if anything has a reason, God does--but simply cruel.

If God were cruel, He could simply do justice and damn everyone without exception.

The fact that even one person is saved is a wonder of mercy.

[A.J.Armitage]

If you're going to say I quoted it out of context, you'll have to show how.

[RnMomof7]

God created creatures who have free will. We are free to choose whether we love Him who created us or not. A divine principle of love is that it must be freely chosen. Love is not love if "no" is not an option. Coerced love is an oxymoron.

Did God know that Adam was going to sin? Or was He surprised?

[RnMomof7]

Grace BTTT

God is not my "co pilot" He is flying my plane AJ...

Arminians do think God failed you know?

[RnMomof7]

BTW, OP told me in a freepmail he's been too busy lately to participate on the Religion threads, since they take too much time and mental energy (theology being the queen of the sciences and all).

I will remove him from my bump list.I have been removing names as I go

hey we all pick our own poison:>)

[Pistias]

The fact that even one person is saved is a wonder of mercy.

The fact that one is doomed is a travesty of cruelty, if they have no chance to avoid it.

[Pistias]

If God were cruel, He could simply do justice and damn everyone without exception.

How is making a creature you know is faulty and then allowing it to propogate so that you can make them all suffer eternally "just?"

[A.J.Armitage]

Just be sure to add him back when he gets more time.

[rwfromkansas]

Who are you, O man, to reply against God????

[rwfromkansas]

Looks like I will have to say it again:

Who are you to reply against God??? --- Paul

[rwfromkansas]

Better not ping the evolutionists to the thread...they will laugh and mock you and God for saying that....