Navy Officer From Iowa Barred From Entering Mormon Temple

We should give DG the address to the House of Vomit, and he can post all of the distortion and we can play spend all our time cleaning this stuff up. If the whole topic was given, than thoes who insist on draging this garbage around wound find its just another canard!

I agree, total vomit, that spewed forth from the "second prophet" of your church. Be careful of what you have already swallowed.

Your defensiveness indicates that you are suspending doubt about your faith...and for good reason. The vitriolic adversion to a direct quote of B.Y. himself is not a convincing ministry.

I respect all religions.

Why? They are not all equal.

"they are on a Mormon site"

I must take issue with calling that site "a Mormon site". Saying that implies that it is either run by the church, or by a member of the church and that is clearly not so.

"But to say Mormon's teach Christ's death washes us of all our sins is a direct contradiction of Young's own words."

Haven't you heard? All absolute statements are false. :)

Both of these exceptions are extreemly rare among those who are members or want to become members so it is very common for members to generalize the exceptions away, or to just assume that nobody they are talking to is a cold blooded murderer or has denied the Holy Ghost so the exceptions are a non-issue.

If you go and informaly ask any minister, they would probably say Christ's atonement will allow you to become forgiven of all your sins, even though Mat 12:31 says "but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men".

Your defensiveness indicates that you are suspending doubt about your faith...and for good reason. The vitriolic adversion to a direct quote of B.Y. himself is not a convincing ministry.

Don't put words in my mouth and you will have the original talk of B.Y. soon and its been altered by your House of Vomit- This is from the orginal, Journal of Discourses

I respect all religions.
Why? They are not all equal.

Because the LDS believed in allowing those to worship according to the dictate of one conscience.

Starting at the bottom of the letter you referenced.....................

As far as I am concerned you are at liberty to quote from or use this letter in any way you deem proper.Sincerely,

Bruce R. McConkie

So... here goes............

You asked if the statements of our leaders of the past, including those found in the Journal of Discourses, represent the official stand of the Church. The answer, as indicated in the comments above set forth, is that they do not. The statements pertain to a theoretical principle that has been neither revealed to nor practiced by us.

I just wish to ask a question you cannot answer, for that would require you to know the Mind of God.......

#1. If, it was only a 'theoretical' principle, and not to be acted upon, why did God even waste His time (and ours, down thru the years) even cause it to be written down?

Capital crime committed by such an enlightened person cannot be condoned by the Redeemer's blood. For him there is 'no more sacrifice for sin'; his life is forfeit, and he only can pay the penalty. There is no other blood atonement taught, practiced or made part of the creed of the Latter-day Saints."
I repeat: Except for the atonement of Christ, which is or should be a part of the creeds of all Christian churches; and except for the use of the term "blood atonement" as a synonym--nothing more--of "capital punishment" where "enlightened" members of the Church are concerned, there is no such a doctrine in this dispensation as blood atonement.
Since there is no such thing as blood atonement, except as indicated above, the mode of execution could have no bearing on the matter of atoning for one's sins; and

If we are speaking simply of capital punishment (and falsely calling it blood atonement), still I can see no reason for supposing that it makes the slightest difference how an execution is accomplished.
As far as I can see there is no difference between a firing squad, an electric chair, a gas chamber, or hanging. Death is death and I would interpret the shedding of man's blood in legal executions as a figurative expression which means the taking of life. There seems to me to be no present significance as to whether an execution is by a firing squad or in some other way. I, of course, deleted my article on "hanging" from the Second Edition of Mormon Doctrine because of the reasoning here mentioned.

Life is NOT death.

#2. Since most States no longer execute people for Capital Crimes, how can the Killer possibly atone for his own sins if he dies a natural death?

(I'll not even COMMENT on how the KJV 'appears' to say that ALL sin can be atoned for, unlike what is printed in this letter!)

KJV 1 John 1:7
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

I must take issue with calling that site "a Mormon site". Saying that implies that it is either run by the church, or by a member of the church and that is clearly not so.

You're right, that was careless wording. I should have stated that the site appears to be pro-Mormon.

Both of these exceptions are extreemly rare among those who are members or want to become members so it is very common for members to generalize the exceptions away, or to just assume that nobody they are talking to is a cold blooded murderer or has denied the Holy Ghost so the exceptions are a non-issue.

If you go and informaly ask any minister, they would probably say Christ's atonement will allow you to become forgiven of all your sins, even though Mat 12:31 says "but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men".

This is the best answere I think possible, but, it still doesn't account for an additional blood sacrifice as professed by Young.

Don't put words in my mouth and you will have the original talk of B.Y. soon and its been altered by your House of Vomit- This is from the original, Journal of Discourses

You weren't quoted, I got them from YOUR HoV, not mine. You are still getting your shorts in a knot over simple questions, and my pushing for better answers than the Lies of Satan BS. I'll say it again, you react as if your faith is a wounded animal.

Take an apologetics class from Prof. Grig.

You guys ware the shorts, not me! My animals are doing just find "DEAD DOG"!:)

restornu, didn't you say you were going to post the un-edited Young? Journal of Discourse, VOl 4 Pg 53-54.

My appologies to you and Grig, I did inadvertantly pull those other JoD quotes from a openly hostile site.

I'll see if I can get the same text from an LDS affiliated site. They should still be the same, being that it was a digitized document.

I am not mad at you its the HOV they are a real thorn!

I mail it to Grig for I am having vision trouble, squinting and its ruff!

I'll give it a try I started a little before and a little after the article. I like the person to have an overhaul picture. I tried to show in the one you got how it was alterd So you will get the JOD and than yours with indications.

1-Journal of Discourses, Vol.4, p.53, Brigham Young, September 21, 1856
I could give you a logical reason for all the transgressions in this world, for all that are committed in this probationary state, and especially for those committed by men.

2-Journal of Discourses, Vol.4, p.53, Brigham Young, September 21, 1856
There are sins that men commit for which they cannot receive forgiveness in this world, or in that which is to come, and if they had their eyes open to see their true condition, they would be perfectly willing to have their blood spilt upon the ground, that the smoke thereof might ascend to heaven as an offering for their sins; and the smoking incense would atone for their sins, whereas, if such is not the case, they will stick to them and remain upon them in the spirit world.

3-Journal of Discourses, Vol.4, p.53, Brigham Young, September 21, 1856
I know, when you hear my brethren telling about cutting people off from the earth, that you consider it is strong doctrine; but it is to save them, not to destroy them.

4-Journal of Discourses, Vol.4, p.53, Brigham Young, September 21, 1856
Of all the children of Israel that started to pass through the wilderness, none inherited the land which had been promised, except Caleb and Joshua, and what was the reason? It was because of their rebellion and wickedness; and because the Lord had promised Abraham that he would save his seed.

5-Journal of Discourses, Vol.4, p.53, Brigham Young, September 21, 1856
They had to travel to and fro to every point to the compass, and were wasted away, because God was determined to save their spirits. But they could not enter into His rest in the flesh, because of their transgressions, consequently He destroyed them in the wilderness.

6-Journal of Discourses, Vol.4, p.53 - p.54, Brigham Young, September 21, 1856
I do know that there are sins committed, of such a nature that if the people did understand the doctrine of salvation, they would tremble because of their situation. And furthermore, I know that there are transgressors, who, if they knew themselves, and the only condition upon which they can obtain forgiveness, would beg of their brethren to shed their blood, that the smoke thereof might ascend to God as an offering to appease the wrath that is kindled against them, and that the law might have its course. I will say further; I have had men come to me and offer their lives to atone for their sins.

7-Journal of Discourses, Vol.4, p.54, Brigham Young, September 21, 1856
It is true that the blood of the Son of God was shed for sins through the fall and those committed by men, yet men can commit sins which it can never remit. As it was in ancient days, so it is in our day; and though the principles are taught publicly from this stand, still the people do not understand them; yet the law is precisely the same. There are sins that can be atoned for by an offering upon an altar, as in ancient days; and there are sins that the blood of a lamb, of a calf, or of turtle doves, cannot remit, but they must be atoned for by the blood of the man. That is the reason why men talk to you as they do from this stand; they understand the doctrine and throw out a few words about it. You have been taught that doctrine, but you do not understand it.

8-Journal of Discourses, Vol.4, p.54, Brigham Young, September 21, 1856
It is our desire to be prepared for a celestial seat with our Father in heaven. It was observed by brother Grant that we have not seen God, that we cannot converse with Him; and it is true that men in their sins do not know much about God. When you hear a man pour out eternal things, how well you feel, to what a nearness you seem to be brought with God. What a delight it was to hear brother Joseph talk upon the great principles of eternity; he would bring them down to the capacity of a child, and he would unite heaven with earth, this is the beauty of our religion.

9-Journal of Discourses, Vol.4, p.54, Brigham Young, September 21, 1856
When it was mentioned this morning about seeing God, about what kind of a being He was, and how we could see and measurably understand Him, I thought I would tell you. If we could see our heavenly Father, we should see a being similar to our earthly parent, with this difference, our Father in heaven is exalted and glorified. He has received His thrones, His principalities and powers, and He sits as a governor, as a monarch, and overrules kingdoms, thrones, and dominions that have been bequeathed to Him, and such as we anticipate receiving. While He was in the flesh, as we are, He was as we are. But it is now written of Him that our God is as a consuming fire, that He dwells in everlasting burnings, and this is why sin cannot be where He is.

10-Journal of Discourses, Vol.4, p.54, Brigham Young, September 21, 1856
There are principles that will endure through all eternity, and no fire can obliterate them from existence. They are those principles that are pure, and fire is made typical use of to show the glory and purity of the gods, and of all perfect beings. God is the Father of our spirits; He begat them, and has sent them here to receive tabernacles, and to prove whether we will honour them. If we do, then our tabernacles will be exalted; but if we do not, we shall be destroyed; one of the two--dissolution or life. The second death will decompose all tabernacles over whom it gains the ascendancy; and this is the effect of the second death, the tabernacles go back to their native element.

11-Journal of Discourses, Vol.4, p.54, Brigham Young, September 21, 1856
We are of the earth, earthy; and our Father is heavenly and pure. But we will be glorified and purified, if we obey our brethren and the teachings which are given.

12-Journal of Discourses, Vol.4, p.54, Brigham Young, September 21, 1856
When you see celestial beings, you will see men and women, but you will see those beings clothed upon with robes of celestial purity. We cannot bear the presence of our Father now; and we are placed at a distance to prove whether we will honor these tabernacles, whether we will be obedient and prepare ourselves to live in the glory of the light, privileges, and blessings of celestial beings. We could not have the glory and the light without first knowing the contrast. Do you comprehend that we could have no exaltation, without first learning by contrast?

13-Journal of Discourses, Vol.4, p.54 - p.55, Brigham Young, September 21, 1856
When you are prepared to see our Father, you will see a being with whom you have long been acquainted, and He will receive you into His arms, and you will be ready to fall into His embrace and kiss Him, as you would your fathers and friends that have been dead for a score of years, you will be so glad and joyful. Would you not rejoice? When you are qualified and purified, so that you can endure the glory of eternity, so that you can see your Father, and your friends who have gone behind the vail, you will fall upon their necks and kiss them, as we do an earthly friend that has been long absent from us, and that we have been anxiously desiring to see. This is the people that are and will be permitted to enjoy the society of those happy and exalted beings.

To: Grig

OK, were not getting anywhere this way.

An honost question though, how does the modern LDS explain the practice of "Blood Atonement"?

I think this is an accurate quote from B. Young.

2-"There are sins that men commit for which they cannot receive forgiveness in this world, or in that which is to come, and if they had their eyes open to see their true condition, they would be perfectly willing to have their blood spilt upon the ground, that the smoke thereof might ascend to heaven as an offering for their sins; and the smoking incense would atone for their sins, whereas, if such is not the case, they will stick to them and remain upon them in the spirit world.

3-"I know, when you hear my brethren telling about cutting people off from the earth, that you consider it is strong doctrine; but it is to save them, not to destroy them....6- "And further more, I know that there are transgressors, who, if they knew themselves, and the only condition upon which they can obtain forgiveness, would beg of their brethren to shed their blood, that the smoke thereof might ascend to God as an offering to appease the wrath that is kindled against them, and that the law might have its course. I will say further; I have had men come to me and offer their lives to atone for their sins.

7-"It is true that the blood of the Son of God was shed for sins through the fall and those committed by men, yet men can commit sins which it can never remit.... There are sins that can be atoned for by an offering upon an altar, as in ancient days; and there are sins that the blood of a lamb, or a calf, or of turtle dove, cannot remit, but they must be atoned for by the blood of the man."

(Sermon by Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 4, pages 53-54); also published in the Mormon Church's Deseret News, 1856, page 235)

OK WE HAVE A PROBLEM WITH PARAGAPH 3

(4,5, and most of 6 is missing see below the complete order.) 3-"I know, when you hear my brethren telling about cutting people off from the earth, that you consider it is strong doctrine; but it is to save them, not to destroy them....6- "And further more, I know that there are transgressors, who, if they knew themselves, and the only condition upon which they can obtain forgiveness, would beg of their brethren to shed their blood, that the smoke thereof might ascend to God as an offering to appease the wrath that is kindled against them, and that the law might have its course. I will say further; I have had men come to me and offer their lives to atone for their sins.

****************************************************************

3-Journal of Discourses, Vol.4, p.53, Brigham Young, September 21, 1856
I know, when you hear my brethren telling about cutting people off from the earth, that you consider it is strong doctrine; but it is to save them, not to destroy them.

4-Journal of Discourses, Vol.4, p.53, Brigham Young, September 21, 1856
Of all the children of Israel that started to pass through the wilderness, none inherited the land which had been promised, except Caleb and Joshua, and what was the reason? It was because of their rebellion and wickedness; and because the Lord had promised Abraham that he would save his seed.

5-Journal of Discourses, Vol.4, p.53, Brigham Young, September 21, 1856
They had to travel to and fro to every point to the compass, and were wasted away, because God was determined to save their spirits. But they could not enter into His rest in the flesh, because of their transgressions, consequently He destroyed them in the wilderness.

6-Journal of Discourses, Vol.4, p.53 - p.54, Brigham Young, September 21, 1856
I do know that there are sins committed, of such a nature that if the people did understand the doctrine of salvation, they would tremble because of their situation. And furthermore, I know that there are transgressors, who, if they knew themselves, and the only condition upon which they can obtain forgiveness, would beg of their brethren to shed their blood, that the smoke thereof might ascend to God as an offering to appease the wrath that is kindled against them, and that the law might have its course. I will say further; I have had men come to me and offer their lives to atone for their sins.

7-Journal of Discourses, Vol.4, p.54, Brigham Young, September 21, 1856
It is true that the blood of the Son of God was shed for sins through the fall and those committed by men, yet men can commit sins which it can never remit. As it was in ancient days, so it is in our day; and though the principles are taught publicly from this stand, still the people do not understand them; yet the law is precisely the same. There are sins that can be atoned for by an offering upon an altar, as in ancient days; and there are sins that the blood of a lamb, of a calf, or of turtle doves, cannot remit, but they must be atoned for by the blood of the man. That is the reason why men talk to you as they do from this stand; they understand the doctrine and throw out a few words about it. You have been taught that doctrine, but you do not understand it.

6-Journal of Discourses, Vol.4, p.53 - p.54, Brigham Young, September 21, 1856
I do know that there are sins committed, of such a nature that if the people did understand the doctrine of salvation, they would tremble because of their situation. And furthermore, I know that there are transgressors, who, if they knew themselves, and the only condition upon which they can obtain forgiveness, would beg of their brethren to shed their blood, that the smoke thereof might ascend to God as an offering to appease the wrath that is kindled against them, and that the law might have its course. I will say further; I have had men come to me and offer their lives to atone for their sins.

*************************************************************************

3-Journal of Discourses, Vol.4, p.53, Brigham Young, September 21, 1856
I know, when you hear my brethren telling about cutting people off from the earth, that you consider it is strong doctrine; but it is to save them, not to destroy them. (There is no add words to this paragraph)

6-Journal of Discourses, Vol.4, p.53 - p.54, Brigham Young, September 21, 1856
I do know that there are sins committed, of such a nature that if the people did understand the doctrine of salvation, they would tremble because of their situation.(THIS IS A VITAL PART THAT WAS OMITED!)
And furthermore, I know that there are transgressors, who, if they knew themselves, and the only condition upon which they can obtain forgiveness, would beg of their brethren to shed their blood, that the smoke thereof might ascend to God as an offering to appease the wrath that is kindled against them, and that the law might have its course. I will say further; I have had men come to me and offer their lives to atone for their sins.

(scotterwottier read # 12 on post 270

I am not mad at you its the HOV they are a real thorn!

No problem, and I would understand if you were. I'm pretty good at being a jerk about things. We really are on the same team in the grand scheme. But I love a good argument.

The history of the the LDS is something I find interesting, from an outsiders perspective, and I do take more of a hostile stance than I should. And quite frankly, I have no cirticism of modern Mormons that I don't have for any other Christian organization. By the way, who exactly is the HoV?

Thanks in advance on your help on the JoD sources.

These are discourses and not consider Doctrines or Scriptures, yet I do enjoy pondering the visual treats.

To me it nice to elevate our thoughts and wonder what it would be like.

"#1. If, it was only a 'theoretical' principle, and not to be acted upon, why did God even waste His time (and ours, down thru the years) even cause it to
be written down?"

You didn't read it very closely, he clearly said that it was practiced in past ages, so clearly God would have revealed it to them. It is theoretical in OUR age because the conditions required to practice it do not exist, but the knowledge of it is usefull to understand the past when it was practiced, just as an understanding of the Law of Moses is usefull in understanding the OT.

"#2. Since most States no longer execute people for Capital Crimes, how can the Killer possibly atone for his own sins if he dies a natural death?"

You question assumes the practice of it, which is not the case. Those who have murdered or who have denied the Holy Ghost are not allowed to become or remain members of the Church.

"I'll not even COMMENT on how the KJV 'appears' to say that ALL sin can be atoned for, unlike what is printed in this letter!"

Ah, but you did comment on it, so I must show you your error. Look up Mat12:31, or see post 462.

"You're right, that was careless wording. I should have stated that the site appears to be pro-Mormon. "

That is another tactic often used, for anti's to try and portray themselves as pro-mormon or 'unbiased', then start to spew their garbage. I find honest, informed and accurate non-Mormon critics to be very, very rare, but not non-existant.

"This is the best answere I think possible, but, it still doesn't account for an additional blood sacrifice as professed by Young. "

What additional blood sacrifice do you mean? The letter makes it clear that in this age there is requirement for any such thing. The Law of Moses however did require blood offerings for many different occasions and reasons and it is well recorded in the OT.

Again, quoting from the letter.......

....mention that there are some sins for which the blood of Christ alone does not cleanse a person. These include blasphemy against the Holy Ghost (as defined by the Church) and that murder which is the unlawful killing of a human being with malice.

You will note there are two items included here.

In your haste to point out a supposed error on MY part, you referenced a Scripture, that pointed to the first of the the two, not the second,

KJV Matthew 12:31
31. Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

which I was addressing.

Do you have the CORRECT reference handy for me to observe?

The Law of Moses however did require blood offerings for many different occasions and reasons and it is well recorded in the OT.

Of HUMANS???

I find honest, informed and accurate non-Mormon critics to be very, very rare, but not non-existant.

Do you have a LINK to these folks?

Ooops! ;^)

I re-read your reply to me and saw that it was the 'all' to which you were refering me.

Let me back up and say that EXCEPT for the blasphemy thing, ALL other sins yada yada yada...........

These include blasphemy against the Holy Ghost (as defined by the Church)

BTW, what IS your church's definitation of it?